Araucaria angustifolia: Panana Pine

Discussion in 'Araucariaceae' started by trimnut2, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Member

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    Also known as the Brazilian Monkey Puzzle (BMP),
    Although there has been some interest in the monkey puzzle, (MP) A: araucana, I see little interest in this related species. A net search and other sources suggests that BMP has a similar productivity and growth habits to MP.

    Can anyone confirm this? Are there any other plantings of this species in different areas around the world? Can some idea of BMP's responses be garnered from those plantings?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  2. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Not winter hardy in Britain, but you should be OK with it in Australia, at least in the higher rainfall areas. Its requirements and appearance are actually more similar to your Queensland native Bunya Araucaria bidwillii, than they are to A. araucana.
     
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Comparatively small specimens are present here but nothing demonstrating long term suitability.
     
  4. Luke Harding

    Luke Harding Active Member

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    Hello folks,
    I planted an Araucaria angustifolia outside in the UK 2 winters ago, despite protests from my bosses about its hardiness. It has now grown strongly to around 6-7ft in height. It is however, in a sheltered spot, in very well drained soil and I'm unsure just how long it will live with our temperamental winters.
    The most obvious differences I can think of are the coloration (quite a glaucous sheen on young growth) and the fact that its needles are even sharper than those of A. araucana! Twas one of the most painful plantings I've ever undertaken!!
    Interestingly you say it is called Panana Pine. I've always understood it to be called Parana (as in sharp toothed fish) Pine. Typing error or just me getting it wrong?
    I have a couple of younger plants which are hardening off well (seed was sourced at higher altitude which should help with hardiness) and I hope to plant them out in the next year or two. I think this species is hardier than it is given credit for.
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Parana is usual. Reminds me of Cunninghamia. Don't think it is going to be hardier than expected by those not thinking it is more hardy, unless new collections result in hardier forms than before.

    With southern hemisphere plants higher altitudes do not automatically yield hardier stock.
     
  6. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    As an aside, correctly Paraná, with the stress on the final á.
     
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Probably related to piranha.
     
  8. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Member

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    Thanks to all for your detailed replies.

    Panana: My mistake, sorry, that should have been have been Parana. I understand that name comes from the river that forms a natural boundary to A. angustifolia's northern most distribution in Brazil. Part of the scenery for the fish one might say.

    I shall try this species. I have 3 A. bidwillii 22 yrs and 5 A. araucana 4 yrs and all doing well. I would like to see if A. angustifolia can also tackle conditions here.

    Does anyone have any recommended seed sources? I do not know of any specimens that may produce reliable seed here. Failing that I shall try the cuttings route.
     
  9. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Actually I think it's understood to be named after the State of Parana. Looks like there may not be a specific Parana fish. Wikipedia says there is a festival where the seeds are consumed, with the gathering of large quantities threatening the species.
     
  10. Luke Harding

    Luke Harding Active Member

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    How did you get the accent over the N Michael? I'm a bit rubbish at this computer stuff and can't figure out how to do accents.
     
  11. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Acute accents over vowels are easy - hold down the AltGr key, and type the relevant vowel. Type AltGr + a = á, AltGr + e = é, etc.

    Other accents such as è or ô (and other characters, such as æ, ñ, ð, š, ğ, ő, π [Greek], Я [Cyrillic], ې [Arabic], ל [Hebrew], ♫, ♂, ♀, etc.), are more complicated; simplest is to find Character Map on your computer, hunt down the character you want, copy it from there, and paste it into the text.

    Many (but not all) of them can also be done by holding down the Alt key (not the AltGr key this time!) and typing four numbers from the number pad at the right end of the keyboard; thus e.g. Alt + 0232 = è, Alt + 0241 = ñ, etc., Alt + 0153 = ™, Alt + 0169 = ©, etc. But you still need somewhere to look up the numbers for each character - I printed out a crib sheet for the ones I'm most likely to need and have it pasted on the wall next to the computer ;-)
     
  12. Luke Harding

    Luke Harding Active Member

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    I think I got that?!
    Thanks :0)
     
  13. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Thanks for the keyboard tips.
     
  14. Ian

    Ian Active Member

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    A. angustifolia lived through 12 degrees F (-11C) in its first winter (1998-99) for me; it's now 16' tall. Sandeman Seeds usually offers this species in season.
     
  15. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    You did well to get it through -11°C, it isn't usually considered reliable below about -7 to -10°C.
     
  16. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    To last on most sites here plants have to be hardy down to near 5F or below. We've seen 5F here less than 1/4 mile from Puget Sound more than once, without using a maximimum/minimum thermometer which might have told us it got even colder. In 1990 the mildest waterfront Seattle gardens got down to 12F. Just a few miles out minimums drop right off, one gardener claimed to have seen 2F (1990) as close in as the vicinity of North Seattle Community College. People in western WA and OR valleys or foothills may see subzero temperatures during the coldest winters, as occurred during 1990 when the southern half of the Willamette Valley got down to -12F (Salem) and below (-14F Springfield-Eugene). To be fully confident of hanging onto plants hardy only to the double digits you have to be located on or very near a saltwater beach in this region. Many things will live for years between sharp cold spells, of course, but landmark trees like araucarias will not be seen in a mature condition unless they can take the worst we have to offer. I have come to think that is a big part (along with other reasons, of course) of why plantings in parks, cemetaries and older neighborhoods are dominated by the same old common hardy stuff. Likely many other kinds have been planted but froze out at some point (definitely the case at the Seattle arboretum, even if not in fact so usual elsewhere here). At present there is certainly no lack of borderline or outright tender plants being offered for outdoor planting in local outlets, so whatever has happened before the scarcity or lack of older examples in the local scene doesn't seem to be for lack of trying.
     
  17. Ian

    Ian Active Member

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    While I wouldn't debate the main premise of your statement, I feel compelled to mention that, according to the Western Regional Climate Center, the lowest official minima that occurred during 1990 for Salem was 7F and for Eugene 4F (both from their respective airports). Other winters were colder, but for most of the Willamette Valley the last time it dropped below 0F was 1972.

    In the Puget Sound area, there are even sites within 1/4 mile of salt water that have been below 0F. The newer Sequim weather station dropped below 0F in both November 1985 and February 1989 (but not December 1990) and is less than 1/2 mile from salt water, albeit in a severe frost pocket. It's too bad the old Sequim weather station, closer to downtown, was discontinued, since it would be interesting to compare them.

    Sorry for diverging from the original topic of this thread. It's my opinion that Araucaria angustifolia is worthy of continuous trial from a variety of provenances, and in many different climates and cultural conditions, before its frost hardiness can be empirically known.
     
  18. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Maybe I've got the wrong year*, although since it was called the coldest winter in 30 years...

    Subzero readings for southern Willamette Valley reported in bound volumes of printed federal weather records that were on the shelves of the Miller Horticultural Library in Seattle, prior to the fire. Don't know if these are still in the collection there, likely they have them in libraries elsewhere such as on the main UW campus. I've also seen or heard similar readings given by other sources including private individuals on hand for the experience.

    *Later: I searched "eugene record low temperature" and got a table with -12F for Eugene and Salem in the 1950s. I am sure even lower readings have been claimed elsewhere. For Eugene at least it seems such low plunges might have been due to the combination of being on the valley floor, being at the bottom end of the valley, where cold air coming from near the gorge might back up, and proximity to the mountains.
     
  19. Ian

    Ian Active Member

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    Ever since those records were taken offline, I've had the idea to go hunt for them at the UW. Someday.

    Salem and Eugene both bottomed out at -12F in 1972, and were almost as cold in 1950. The coldest temperature I'm aware of for any Willamette Valley location is -24F in McMinnville, in 1919. Of course, any of those numbers would certainly be cold enough to kill off most of my garden.
     
  20. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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  21. O'Grodnick

    O'Grodnick Member

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    Considering how healthy this nice specimen from BG Lyon (France, Z7b) looks like, the hardiness of A. angustifolia seems underrated.
     
  22. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Above photo shows a young and small specimen surrounded by oleanders - the latter indicating a soft climate. USDA 7b designation questionable.

    Occasional sharp lows for brief periods followed by rapid returns to higher temperatures do not test plants in the same way that extended periods of cold that freeze the soil and roots do.

    The small Parana pine I bought from Ian last year and planted on Camano Island now has the same burnt needle tips and bleached looking leaf color I have seen on other young examples during prior years in this region. The burnt leaf tips I take to indicate approaching of killing temperatures for the species. The diminished greenness I see as a sign of not being adapted to cold soil conditions and accompanying reduced nitrogen levels. The common glaring post-winter yellowishness of other hot climate evergreens like California myrtle, gardenias, southern magnolia etc. I also read as the same problem.
     
  23. Antonic

    Antonic Member

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    I am supplier of araucaria angustifolia seed. He have it in the collecting season - april- august.

    email: sitiofloresta@hotmail.com
     
  24. robert m murphey

    robert m murphey Member

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    The common name for this tree is Paraná, which has nothing to do with the carniverous fish (paranha). Paraná is the name of a state in southern Brazil, and it is a Tupi-Guarani word meaning "where a river bifurcates" or an island. I don't believe that the word Panana exists as anything other than a typo.
     
  25. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    This week I noticed that the growing tip (leader) on the miserable little Parana Pine here is dead. Very little progress has been made since the last winter. Other kinds of plants in the same bed are growing like weeds.
     

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