Viable Acer griseum (Paperbark Maple) seeds?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Maiden, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Ian Stanton

    Ian Stanton New Member

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    How did your seedlings do @Maiden? Did the deer get them?
     
  2. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Ian, I don't remember seeing the suggestion of saccharum, but you're quite right. It is possible to graft griseum onto pseudoplatanus, and that is what is usually done.

    I recently got another griseum 'Golden Lucky', since the first one (apparently a cutting) doesn't exhibit much variegation. The new once is grafted on pseudoplatanus, which is sometimes called "universal rootstock" in the maple nursery world. Well, it works equally poorly for most maples!

    I wanted to try Tim's GA3 method, but was never able to get hold of any. I even asked at the pharmacy, where in France they're supposed to be able to mix any potion, but they had no idea. Do you have a UK web source? I might see if they will ship to France.
     
  3. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    I have seen reports for successful grafts on both saccharum and pseudoplatanus. And mentions of numerous failures on both. The best rootstock appears to be griseum itself.

    The only picture I have been able to find of the actual process is in this story (however, I cannot tell if the rootstock is saccharum or pseudoplatanus; @emery can you tell?).

    https://longwoodgardens.org/blog/2022-11-02/paperbark-maple-new-look-old-friend
     

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  4. Maiden

    Maiden Active Member

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    Thank you for asking. They didn't get them because none sprouted. :( I had high hopes seeing all those embryos. Nadda
     
  5. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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  6. Ian Stanton

    Ian Stanton New Member

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    Here is a link to the item I purchased from eBay.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22519842...cCHPgEHT4m&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
     
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  7. Ian Stanton

    Ian Stanton New Member

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    Ah no, that's really disappointing. Am I right in understanding that you no longer have access to the mother tree? In case you can still get seed, I did find one video on you tube that explained another approach to success.

    I'll paste a link below, but here is an excerpt from the comments made by the author.

    "... Thank you! I've gotten better over the years, first year only got 1 out of 5,000 to germinate. Last year got about 200. I've got 2 mature trees that drop thousands of seeds, I plant the seeds immediately from tree to dirt using natural stratification in well drained soil. I don't bother removing wings and pile seeds on top of each other about 3 layers deep then cover w dirt keeping them in full sun until they germinate then move to morning sun. I also find seedlings growing around the trees every year. Sometimes seeds take years to germinate, be patient and never give up!"

     
  8. Ian Stanton

    Ian Stanton New Member

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    Thanks for sharing this article. Super interesting.
     
  9. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yes, that's pseudoplatanus rootstock. I can't think why saccharum would work! Can you point me at something that reports it? TIA.
     
  10. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    That's excellent, I forgot about this paper, and it has a cultivar list! Some of which I think I don't have. I have the hard copy, but will enjoy cut n paste. But, the griseum × pseudoplatanus technique is highly suspect, I'm actually surprised Tony Aiello mentions it without saying "supposed hybrid". I've never seen any proof whatsoever that 'Purple Haze' is anything but either a variable sycamore or A. × pseudoheldreichii. Personally, I believe it's the latter, because it looks *exactly like it*. As chance would have it, I took a picture of a bud and bark of 'Purple Haze' 3 days ago. Some people used to vaguely claim it had been proved by genetic analysis, (hard to do given the state of the art), but no one has ever produced this research. I'd love to see it if anyone can find it.

    20240420_143739_v1.jpg 20240420_143822_v1.jpg

    If it looks like a sycamore, and quacks like a sycamore... ;) If it's a griseum, it has no griseum characteristics. More likely a sycamore or pseudoheldreichii seed fell into the seed bed. It even has purple leaf undersides and poor autumn color. Hmm.

    So, Humphrey's double graft method would really just be double grafting on sycamore (or as near as). We know you can graft it onto sycamore already, although as usual with meh results; and we know you can double graft, so... draw your own conclusions.

    Cheers, -E
     
  11. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    I remember reading it somewhere in a reputable work. I will try to find it.
    Aiello also mentions that generally saccharum and pseudoplatanus can be used as a rootstock.
    BTW, there is supposedly a griseum x saccharum hybrid, ‘Sugarflake’.

    I am also convinced that it can hybridize with platanoides and possibly truncatum. I had two seedlings that had features of both griseum and platanoides. Very pubescent leaf undersides and leaf shape more or less a platanoides type. One of them died after 3 years, the second one I discarded after 5 years, because it was growing too fast and didn’t have any truly appealing features. The truncatum possibility is another story. (Sorry, you are probably not interested in these wild speculations about griseum being very promiscuous.)
     
  12. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yes, I know about Sugarflake, haven't seen it though. I'd be pretty skeptical. There are some real griseum x maximowiczianum.

    platanoides and truncatum are members of Section Platanoidea, which means the sap contains white latex. Any inter-sectional hybridization is pretty unlikely, but I suppose (without pulling out a clade graph, which already vary quite a bit according to which part of the DNA is being compared) it would be equally likely that griseum could hybridize with pseudoplatanus and saccharum, both Sec. Acer. It would be very odd indeed to cross with Platanoidea, though!
     
  13. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Hi @emery , this is the one I was thinking about:

    Dirr, M.A. and C.W. Heuser, Jr. (1987) The reference manual of woody plant propagation: From seed to tissue culture

    “For best results, A. griseum should be grafted on seedling A. griseum. The other trifoliate maples, according to some, do not serve as suitable understocks. Work in Holland indicated the grafts were successful for 2 to 3 years but eventually failed. Senior author and cohorts budded A. griseum on A. saccharum in August with 40% success. The budded stock was dug, brought into the greenhouse and grew 18 to 30” the first three months. One commercial grower grafts A. griseum on A. saccharum but long term prospects are open to question. Senior author has two of these grafted trees in his garden. A conspicuous bulge is noticeable at union (A. saccharum is twice diameter of A. griseum).”

    Hope this is helpful.
     
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  14. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yes, very. I wonder how those plants are now? I have a 2011 reprint of the book, with a 2006 copyright; so presumably updated from the original 1987 version. The text you cite is identical.

    Fascinating, thanks! I find myself with a lot a saccharum at the moment, I may try to graft the griseum and see what happens. I wonder what prompted them to try it in the first place? Cheers, -E
     
  15. Ian Stanton

    Ian Stanton New Member

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    I had the chance to see two nice mature trees in St James's Park, London today, so here they are.
    PXL_20240424_111333874.jpg PXL_20240424_114102050.jpg
     
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  16. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    Hi @emery , I was digging through my old maple pictures and I found a couple of the suspected x platanoides hybrids. Here is the first one which had pubescent leaves and petioles (especially leaf underside). It died, probably because it was planted in a site that was too wet.
     

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  17. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    And here is the second one, which I discarded because it wasn’t that interesting. It had downy leaf undersides. With age, it just seemed more and more platanoides, just with pubescent leaves (no pictures from later years).
     

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  18. Nik

    Nik Generous Contributor

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    This is the location where I found them both, under the griseum tree.
    All seedlings in that area get the weedwacker treatment, so unless removed early on, they are doomed.
     

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