Hi, I bought this *** Fili (picure attached) a few years ago. It was cheaper than the others, because it had no label and looked a bit run down. I could not find a graft mark, so I thought it might be the odd one grown from seed. The unusual thing was that there were much larger leafs developing as well, which did not look so well, so I pinched them out. When I took the scions for grafting that year, I ended up with one fili and one larger leaf ( looks a bit like 'Shaina') plant So, my question is: Did I produced a better cultivar ( or two ) of the motherplant and also of course: Can anyone identify the cultivar? regards Webwolf from Downunder
*** Fili ? Webwolf, what do you mean by the term "*** Fili "? Is that some kind of oriental pony? What you have is an Acer palmatum linearilobum. It looks like Acer palmatum linearilobum 'Red Pygmy'. Don't pinch out those larger leaves. It is not reverting. Those are leaves that develop on immature wood. As the plant ages and the newer stems mature the leaves produced on those more mature stems will be finer, more linear. Also, and I don't really give a huge rats rear-end but I have found that a large percentage of people reading this forum will be offended to some degree by a reference to anything Japanese as "***". Eventually they will let you know. I think that it reflects a lazy and cavalier attitude towards speech and communication that has become far too popular here in the US for the past four years or so. It's a matter of respect towards the Japanese people and their marvelous culture, a big part of which, for me, is the wonderful wealth of their indigenous plant material. As for you or anyone else using the term "***", I believe in 1st amendment rights (see U.S. Constitution). Here in the US, for my purpose in this dialog, it means free speech. Of course, those offended by the term may come back and ridicule you for using the term and that is okay, because I believe in free speech. As for the mechanics involved in uttering the term "***", many people think that since it is a solitary syllable that it is easier and more expedient to use than "Japanese". I beg to differ. I find the term "Japanese" much more lyrical and like the tree itself, beautiful. It is therefore musical and seems to flow from the lips. When we use the term in describing or discussing trees. we use it as an adjective and it is usually followed by a word such as maple. The transition between the two seems much smoother when saying "Japanese". Try it. Say it,..."Japanese Maple"... When the term "***" is used the flow of words is more like dropping a gear in a 49' International Harvester going up a hill. That's a metefer. You know what a metefer is, don't ya?
Let's keep the conversation about plants. I think we all know where this might go, and it's not necessary. I question whether an Australian's brevity is similar in origin to any purported tendency for brevity on the part of someone in the US, but this really isn't the place for it.
Hi, Sorry to offend you. I should have written ***.Fili. , which abreviates for Japanese Filigran to shorten a word like you did with 'don't' instead of 'do not'. Thank you for your plant identification. Webwolf from Downunder
No offense I wasn't offended, I was merely trying to help you in communicating with people of other cultures who might find the term "***" offensive. Into this post, I will add just another statement in this regard. I don't know why it's not the place for it. We are talking plants and without people we wouldn't be doing so. We're discussing plants in relationship with people. We are sharing principals...communicating both scientific and cultural ideas. How people integrate plants into their cultures and how people share and intertwine principals of different cultures, like Bonsai or Japanese Maples into their own . How are we doing this? Primarily with words and words represent ideas, concepts and things. I realize that certain words are not offensive to some people but they can be to others. I think that the term "***" is commonly used Downunder and it is not necessarily considered a slur. Here in the US it is still used infrequently and I don't think that most people who use the term "***" are using it derisively but I know that people in some cultures, most notably Japanese are offended by it's use. People all over the world log on to this site from one or more of the internets. As for 'Filli" or "Filligran", I think that "Filligran" is German and/or Norwegian for "Filligree" Filigree (a.) Relating to, composed of, or resembling, work in filigree; as, a filigree basket. Hence: Fanciful; unsubstantial; merely decorative. (n.) Ornamental work, formerly with grains or breads, but now composed of fine wire and used chiefly in decorating gold and silver to which the wire is soldered, being arranged in designs frequently of a delicate and intricate arabesque pattern. Now back to trees, tell me about the grafting techniques that you personally employ Downunder. Nice linearilobum (pictured above), by the way. At first I thought it may be, and it very well maybe Acer palmatum linearilobum 'Aekan le's' (see images).
Fili is short for Filifera which brings to mind Acer Palmatum 'Filifera purpurea'. Long before there was Red Spider (a select form of Atrolineare), Red Pygmy and others in the nursery trade from the 60's to the early 80's, all red forms of Linearilobum were called Filifera, even to some extent in Japan. Today, several red and green deeply divided Maples are still called Lace Leaf Maples in the nursery trade. We always felt that Filifera purpurea and Atrolineare were not the same plant. The growth habits are not quite the same and the coloring in the Spring were not the same either, neither was the bark color. Jim
I have a large Koto no ito and love the interplay of the thread like leaves with the larger leaves on new wood. Let the tree take its form and enjoy it. I also agree with the sentiments expressed rather eloquently by Elmore. These trees were developed by people, originally persons of a certain place and culture with an amazingly rich heritage, and therefore germaine to this list. I know language use varies from one place to another, but respect is an increasing global necessity, and we can all learn from each other here. I certainly want to myself.
Red pygmy or Aekan le's Hi, How can I find out if my maple is either of the above. What is the difference between them. I will attach afew more pictures. regards webwolf from Downunder
Maple ID You could get the book "Japanese Maples" by J. D. Vertrees/Third Edition Revised & Expanded by Peter Gregory and compare descriptions, measurements etc. of 'Atrolineare', 'Red Pygmy', 'Villa Taranto' and 'Scolopendrifolium rubrum', making an identification based on information from the book. You will not find 'Aekan le's' in the book but it is similar to 'Red Pygmy' with darker, purple/red, leaves and stems and a more horizontal growth habit. It is reported to even have dark purple/black bark. Looking at the images that you provided I would say that it is an 'Atrolineare' also known by everyone else but Mr. Shep, lol, as 'Filifera Purpurea'. It's known by many different names but I think 'Atrolineare' is the most recognized cultivar epithet. Your leaves seem to have a prominent, lighter colored, perhaps green, mid-rib and a narrow, upright growth habit. All indicative of Acer palmatum linearilobum 'Atrolineare'. 'Red Pygmy' and the others mentioned have a more rounded, shrublike growth habit. I think Jim was right on it.
Just a quick note: Filifera purpurea was around long before the Atrolineare name was used. Mr. Vertrees at first considered the two cultivars to be different and then later lumped them together. In Oregon in the mid to late 80's when Atrolineare was hot, before there were any real numbers of Red Pygmys for sale, Monrovia stood by its guns and kept the Filifera purpurea labels on their plants. Monrovia did indeed have the true form of Filifera purpurea and from what I understand still has it but there are not many plants of it at this time. In the nursery trade Filifera purpurea was real hot back in the middle 70's up to the mid 80's. More of them were sold in retail nurseries per capita than the Lace Leafs (Burgundy Lace) were. Don's form of Filifera purpurea came in from Japan in the 60's. He later got an Atrolineare to see for himself if the two plants were the same. I will say that I got quizzed a bunch on those two Maples but I picked up on a few things that others may not have noticed. One thing is the palmate leaves and I'll let you guys figure out which one does that more often with some of the newest growth. I'll give you a hint, that Red Spider does it also. You are right Elmore, I've already named this one. Now, it is up to you guys to confirm or deny. Jim
Riddle Me This Batman Okay mr.shep, I'll play. If what you say is correct, as far as 'Atrolineare' and 'Filifera purpureum' being two separate and distinct cultivars, contrary to the few texts I have at my disposal, I will venture to say that I was correct in my last response and that brother wolf has 'Atrolineare'. I do know that just because something is in print does not necessarily make it true and factual. Take what a well known author says about Ginkgo biloba 'Chase Manhattan' I won't mention his name but in his ever popular and quite informative book, he states that by the time he is 100 years old his 'Chase Manhattan' will be about 3' tall. I tracked down the original grower of this cultivar and he told me that it will get 20' to 25' tall. I take that to mean that the original is now that height.
Hi Elmore: Not all of the information in the books is supposed to be right. All the authors can do is write what they feel is correct based on personal or first hand knowledge and from what others have told them. You know nothing of why the Vertress Maple book was so important. For years there were no one to answer people's questions on Japanese Maples. No one in the nursery trade aside from a few individuals that were wholesale growers, for the most part, knew much. The nurseries had a few Maples but when people asked questions they were either told a series of white lies or the nursery had to ask Monrovia. Think I am kidding? What happens if Monrovia did not know the answer? Let me remind you that the Bible for Garden books here stated back in the early 60's that we could not grow Japanese Maples here, even though some of the contributors knew Don. It was perfectly okay to tell people that the Maples could not grow here due to our heat and occasional real cold yet when they wanted Maples who did they come to, to buy them? One hand says one thing and the other hand does another! We've lived with ongoing paradoxes for a long while here. Mr. Vertrees book served to fill a void that many people, including myself, needed and I do mean needed to have as our main reference as I bought my Filifera purpurea while I was in high school and had no one to talk to about how to grow it. At that time in the late 60's we bought the Maple because we liked it but we were on our own when it came to growing it. What Mr. Vertrees did for all of us was one of the most substantial and informative events (certain people knew that it would be and did not hesitate to collaborate and contribute) that could have been imagined at the time. I remember going to a college library and viewing the first edition book many times before I met Don a few years later and bought my first specialty Maple from him. Dealing with Maples I seldom look at the books as I feel comfortable in remembering some of the stuff I learned, sometimes the hard way. I balked at a lot of stuff that I was told and read but I also knew that what we learned years ago had the ability to change in the future. Growing plants side by side gives us a different perspective on Maples. Yes, we do sometimes knit-pick to tell Maples apart and we can and have overlooked certain features to lump certain Maples together. When I got into specialty plants I was a lumper also but after getting my feet wet I became a separator. There are lots of forms of Maples not described in our books and I no longer feel compelled to talk about them much. Seeing the Maples says a lot but if we cannot see, read about or touch a particular Maple few people today will believe it exists or once did exist. I was fortunate to see most of the Maples I've mentioned in other posts and with some of them I have some old photos of them on hand to back me up. As in the case of Atrolineare versus Filifera purpurea there is a marked difference in the coloring of the leaves, one being a green veined red which can and usually does turn a bronze red and the other is more of a purple red that keeps its color better throughout the growing season. It is not my fault that the old industry standard is the better plant in this case. Look at the bark and tell me if you see any white striations? What color is the bark? Filifera purpurea has a reddish cast to its bark, you do not see that in the pics do you? The shape of the leaves can be vastly different in that it is very rare for a Filifera purpurea to throw out a palmate shaped juvenile leaf which Red Spider (a seedling raised by Don and given to two guys in Oregon to grow and propagate) and Atrolineare are known to do. We may get an oddball, narrow shaped vigorous leaf every now and then which is quite common for Red Pygmy, Villa Taranto and others to yield when they are young and vigorous but the leaves stay truer to form than an Atrolineare will. I am not playing around. No one likes my opinion on Maples, yet I am the guy many of you will come to for help in a pinch. I do not mind helping, just do not make me regret it is what I am saying to myself. Yes, this one is Atrolineare! Jim
Don...? Are Don and Mr. Vertrees the same person? I'm glad to be learning from these discussions. Thanks.
Vertrees Jim, I don't take Vertrees books for granted. I have two of them. I agree, what would I have without them. Sunset Western Gardens? jacquot, J. D. Vertrees and Don Kleim were two separate individuals. Jim, tell jacquot about Don Kleim. I'd like to hear more about him also. The lives and histories of pioneering growers is of great interest.
Hi,answer to Mr. Sheps reply Like on the picture above. The bark is grey on older, green on younger wood. No striations ( if you mean grooves ). The leafs are brownish red with green veins turning greener in summer. Autumn colour is non existend ( to hot ), leafs just shrivel and dry off. Wolfgang PS: I really enjoy that news group
Great discussion-the subtle differences in my linearlobum varieties often leave me stumped and more so than any of the other varieties, the color and leaf variation caused by environmental factors seem amplified. I thought I might throw in a few pictures of trees from Oregon, as Jim often mentions them. I post the pictures of Atrolineare with some certainty as it comes from Forest Farms, but the said Red Pygmy is a fun find from a growers market, although it did have the growers label attached, the seller had it for a couple seasons. I leave the Atrolineare to this post and the Red Pygmy to another post as not to have to differentiate the photos. In the photos below, Atrolineare is pictured in fall color with some green veining or interior color. The bark on this tree is color a reddish hue. It currently exhibits an upright habit in contrast to my Red Pygmy. The leaves of this tree have been relatively uniform, but its condition has been relatively stable and growth rate slow.
My Red Pygmy from market has been through great trials bordering on death the last year. This year the leaf lobes were much thicker and more palmate. While the tree did have nice narrow lobed red leaves when I purchesed it, the expression of palmate leaves and thicker lobes seemed a response to heavy environmental stress in 2003. The tree has held up well in full sun, but exhibited a yellow coloration most of the summer. It as green to yellowish bark and a spreading habit. I hope to see a return of the typical leaf and more red color next year. It is just now starting to show some red color that I suspect will appear more orange. I had many trees make it through my tree disaster of 2003, but this tree and my Villa Taranto, both showed strong variations in this years gowth. The color was atypical as was the leaf shape. It will be exiciting to watch the recovery as both are now doing well. regards, Michael
Hi Jacquot: I've written a lot on Mr. Don Kleim in many of my posts. He was my mentor in Japanese Maples and a variety of other nursery plants. He was very much a dear friend and was like a second father to me. Start with this thread I started below. http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=2519 Don's impact on Japanese Maples in the US is second to none all things considered. Several parts of the Japanese Maple book written by Mr. Vertrees were contributions from Don. Almost all of the Trident Maple section of the book was originally written by Don, edited by Mr. Vertrees and then used as the basis for the book manuscript. I knew Mr. Vertrees also and in some ways I was the guy in their later years that passed notes back and forth after a long impasse in their talking to one another. I know what caused the rift between them and that is best left with me but I will say that afterwards they did patch things up but their passing came rather quickly for both of them to pursue a new beginning. Both men essentially wanted to promote Maples in their own way. They knew most of the same people affiliated with Maples here in the US, Europe and in particular, in Japan. Don was the go-getter in that when he wanted to grow a plant he figured out a way to get it here. It did not matter if it was entirely legal or not, he got the plant here. One of the most talked about stories about Don, among select friends, was how he got the first Pinus thunbergiana 'Nana' into the US. He paid the pilot of the Boeing 707 to fly it in on his lap just to bypass Customs. Don got his Pine and then later brought in Pinus thunbergiana 'Nana Aurea'. I have both forms as a tribute to him. Anyone else that has those true forms of kuromatsu can thank Don Kleim and what did they have to do to own one? Just buy it from Don, he already did all of the hard part! There are a lot of Maples, mainly Japanese Maples but several Tridents and Full Moon Maples also that can be directly attributed to him having them brought into the US from Japan into Canada and then into Oregon and later California. How did many of the East Coast nurserymen get their Japanese Maples? They got many of them from Don starting in the late 50's. There were a few common friends of both men that I also knew and I know what they told me about who did what for Maples. Both men went way beyond what anyone else has ever done for Maples in the US. There were other men of major impact also and they were Koichiro Wada and Jiro Kobayashi in Japan as well as William Goddard in British Columbia. Without all of them involved with Mr. Vertrees and Don Kleim we might still be talking about only a handful of Japanese Maples today. Even people in Europe and in Australia and New Zealand owe a great debt of gratitude to those 5 men. The problem I have is that people have forgotten who the pioneers were and that is okay but when we talk Seriyu the question is, would we have it now if Don had not imported it into the US in1972 from Jiro Kobayashi? Many people elsewhere were able to purchase Maples from the US in which many of those Maples originally were imported in by Don Kleim. I've told about the trading of Maples for Conifers from the East Coast in a thread and some of the American pioneers for Conifers were some of those people. Don helped open the door or opened it further for several of them to get Conifers from Japan of which some of them became rather well known in their own right in the Conifer world for their lifelong work with Pines, to name just one Conifer but their impact on Pines alone was beyond substantial. It used to tickle me to know where my Pinus pumila 'Chlorocarpa' came from and knowing the story as to how Don got the original Pine from Sir Harold Hillier. When I first met Don Kleim he had over 300 varieties of Japanese Maples. That numbered increased considerably in the next 14 years as his subordinate was, in part, responsible for seeing the newer Maples elsewhere and bringing them back into the nursery if he felt they were worth growing and monitoring further. On Don's annual trek to Oregon to visit his brother in law in Corvallis whom was the Head of the Forestry Department at Oregon St. University for many years and was a very close friend of Mr. Vertrees, Don would go around and see some of his old nursery friends and see what they had new and also brought in Maples and other plants back into the nursery and/or made deals to have plants delivered to them and have someone I know bring the plants back for the nursery in trade. It was all quite an eventful 14 years to say the least and I miss it greatly. Jim
Thank you very much. I am very glad to know more about the persons, their work and dedication, that have made for these beautiful plants being available to people like me. It is too easy to just take the life work of people like this for granted. We obviously owe a tremendous debt to all of them. I'm grateful to know more about the history of Japanese maples coming to the US and people involved, and be able to have them in mind, as I enjoy my family of trees here on the east coast. I know this is hardly adequate as a response, this is a big subject and ongoing, but I thank you for this window into a certain crucial and important time in that history. David
