The plant being sold as "Anthurium jenmanii" is actually Anthurium bonplandii!!

Discussion in 'Araceae' started by photopro, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    A more appropriate heading for this thread would have likely been "The plant often sold as "Anthurium jenmanii" may actually be Anthurium bonplandii!!"

    I've already received nasty email over this. Please don't get angry, just consider what Dr. Croat says. I have changed the tag on my plant and have received a reasonable amount of mail from others saying they have done the same. Some of that mail has come from Indonesia. if you have the Anthurium with the purple-red leaf, call it as you choose! You still have a beautiful plant, it is just possible you may have the wrong name tag.

    Many people are not going to appreciate this information. Please understand, I DIDN'T SAY THIS! This information came from Dr. Tom Croat of the Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis. Dr. Croat is America's top aroid botanist and Anthurium specialist. Some of you may not be inclined to read all the way through the post entitled Anthurium jenmanii, What in the world is going on? . But you should!

    If you are interested in buying, or selling, the Anthurium from the Guiana Shield that produces the purple-red leaves, you should read one particular post! New information provided by Big Bill who is a part of one of the largest Anthurium growing nurseries in the United States (likely the largest) has just published an incredible bit of information from Dr. Tom Croat of the Missouri Botanical Garden. The plant everyone is selling as Anthurium jenmanii is almost certainly not that species! It ismost likely Anthurium bonplandii subsp. guyanum. Go read what Bill just posted! Please don't get mad at me! I didn't make this up, I just repeated what Bill wrote!

    I'm in the process now of attempting to get a quote directly from Dr. Croat. I'll post it the moment it is available but he is currently on vacation. Thanks Bill, and Denis, for this information. This is going to really confuse a lot of people. But based on your knowledge and the source, believe it!

    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=31876

    Please note, especially if you are about to send me a nasty email, I didn't say this! A recognized aroid botanist said it! But why does it even matter? Well, if someone is advertising a Mercedes Benz for sale and when you arrive with your $30,000 and it is only a Ford pickup, does it matter? Maybe not to some, but to a serious plant collectors, it matters! And I'm sure it would matter to the guy about to buy that truck! For some time I've been told by experts in French Guiana Anthurium jenmanii is not truly rare. But they have also said Anthurium bonplandii subsp. guyanum is rare. And this explains why!

    With information from Dr. Croat and photos from several experts, these links will tell you more
    about each species.
    http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Anthurium jenmaniii pc.html

    http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Anthurium bonplandii pc.html

    If you would like to read the original scientific description of Anthurium jenmanii or Anthurium bonplandii, you can find both in Dr. Croat's Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden 1991, Volume 78, #3. That text can be ordered from the Missouri Botanical Garden. There are photos in the text of both species. The species are only vaguely similar.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2008
  2. bihai

    bihai Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    FL USA
    Wow, you have never even seen firsthand any of the plants being sold as Jenmanii and you can already assure everyone sight unseen that they are not as advertized and that they are buying the incorrect plant?
    <** unproductive remark removed ** -- Daniel>

    Just because some of the plants being offered for sale might be misidentified, doesn't mean that ALL of them are.

    You shouldn't offer such a "blanket assessment" of the plants available on the market, especially since you've never seen the stock being offered for sale first hand. I received mine from a reputable grower, and I am content it is what it is supposed to be, "expert opinion" lacking, and not missed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2007
  3. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    I assume what I've been told by experts. Nothing else. The plants have purple red leaves. Dr. Croat says that plant is Anthurium bonplandii[ subs. guyanum/I]. If you have an arguement with Dr. Croat you can find his email address on the Missouri Botanical Garden website. You can read what Bill wrote on this site, in fact you responded thanking him for the information.
     
  4. bihai

    bihai Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    FL USA
    Yes, I did thank him for his information, because it was well presented and non-judgemental. It presented only the facts about the difference between the 2 plants. It did not insinuate that every Anthurium jenmanii being offered for sale was falsely identified, like your post does.

    <** unproductive remark removed ** -- Daniel>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2007
  5. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    A direct quote from Bill's post earlier today"

    BigBill
    Registered Plus (3-29 posts + 2+ days registered) Join Date: Oct 2007
    Location: Miami, Florida
    Posts: 4

    Re: Anthurium jenmanii, What in the world is going on?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I just want to give a little info to everyone looking for Jenmanii. The plant you are looking for is NOT JENMANII. It is anthurium bonplandi guyanum. My father has talked to DR. Croat in length about this subject and he has told us that the plant everyone is posting that they are seeking is bonplandi guyanum not jenmanii. He says that jenmanii does not even look like bonplandi guyanum. Bonplandi guyanum has the new purpleish foliage that is very distinct characteristic that jenmanii does not have. My father says that a long time ago their was a anthurium bonplandi guyanum at the aroid show that was incorrectly labeled as jenmanii and for some reason the wrong name has been attached to the plant ever since. This is just a little info I thought you guys needed to know.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2007
  6. el frijole

    el frijole Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    paradise, usa
    The people in SE Asia want the plant no matter what the name is. They call it Cobra. If Cobra is what they want then Cobra is what they get. The hype over there is about the beauty of the plant, not the name of it.

    Cheers
     
  7. joclyn

    joclyn Rising Contributor

    Messages:
    2,707
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    philly, pa, usa 6b
    i don't care WHAT it's name is. if it's purple, i WANT it!! :)
     
  8. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    Anyone is free to call any plant in their collection, or garden, by any name or term they choose. That is exactly why some prefer common names and some prefer scientific names. But for well over 100 years scientists have attempted to make sure each individual species is known by the correct scientific name. Just check the scientific data bases and you'll see how many synonym names have been published. Many are still used, but scientifically are incorrect.

    Scientific papers are published all the time correcting the invalid use of scientific names. The ONLY point being made here is, the wrong name is being used for this specimen as was well pointed out by Bill. Both Bill and his father, Denis, are recognized aroid experts. Dr. Tom Croat is the ultimate Anthurium expert in the United States. If you believe he is wrong, I suggest you contact his office.

    If that affects commerce and the sale of the plant, I apologize for the difficulty caused. But if you'd prefer to call the Anthurium that comes from the Guiana Shield and produces a purple leaf by any other name, feel free. Non-scientists and those with little interest in botanical science do it all the time. Bill pointed out that America's top aroid expert says the species that produces the purple leaf is Anthurium bonplandii subsp. guyanum, not Anthurium jenmanii and people are using the wrong name. The two species are entirely different. According to the scientific descriptions, they are only vaguely similar.

    But if anyone would prefer to call a rattle snake a garden snake, feel free. If someone wishes to buy a Volkswagen and call it a Mercedes, please go right ahead. At least they both come from the same country. Does it make a difference? Well, it does to a botanical scientist and probably to the person about to buy a car. According to experts who work in the field with these plants, Anthurium jenmanii (the real one) is relatively common while Anthurium bonplandii subsp. guyanum is relatively rare. And I've got a suspicion that at least serious plant collectors who value scientific data will eventually find it important as well. I talked to one just today. After all, this discussion is being published on a botanical garden website. And I know a bunch of serious plant collectors that I'm sure were interested in this information.

    Does botanical science matter? Well, that now appears debatable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2007
  9. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    This morning I pulled up Anthurium jenmanii on TROPICOS. For those who don't use the service, TROPICOS is a scientific service of the Missouri Botanical Garden and is considered one of the two most accurate on-line scientific plant data bases. You can find TROPICOS here:
    http://mobot.mobot.org/W3T/Search/vast.html

    If you do a search for Anthurium jenmanii you can locate three photos of the species with an inflorescence and leaves. Look closely at the photos of the leaf. They are quite different from the plant all of us previously thought to be Anthurium jenmanii.

    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=33134

    These are Dr. Croat's notes which I copied from that site. Dr. Croat is well aware I often copy and re post his notes since we trade information quite often:

    Anthurium jenmanii Engl.
    ARACEAE
    Collection Information:
    Caribbean, Trinidad
    Vicinity:
    Elevation: 150 m
    Coordinates: 10°44'N 060°56'W
    Collector(s): Thomas B. Croat
    Collection number: 53915
    Collection date: 17 July 1982
    Herbaria: AAU, DUKE, INPA, MEXU, MO, P, WU
    Specimen data: Internodes short, 2-3 cm diam.; cataphylls short, persisting as fibers, lanceolate; petioles sharply D-shaped; midrib flat at base, soon obtusely raised, the primary laterals raised, in weak valleys; tertiary veins in part weakly sunken; lower surface slightly paler and much less glossy than upper surface, the tertiary veins weakly raised in part, darker than the surface; flowered in dultivation Oct.-Nov. 1995; spathe purple, spreading reflexed, coriaceous; margins rolled under; spadix purple-violet to 2 cm. diam. at base.


    I attempted to compare these notes to my own specimen. I had thought my plant was in fact Anthurium jenmanii until Bill made his very interesting post yesterday. Based on Dr. Croat's information regarding the frequent newly emerging purple-red leaves it is now apparent my specimen is actually Anthurium bonplandii subsp. guyanum. But there are other differences and similarities you may want to examine on your own specimens.

    Dr. Croat points out the petiole is sharply "D" shaped. You almost have to cut a leaf off to examine this feature closely but you can also do it by careful examination. Basically, what Dr. Croat is pointing out is the petiole (the structure that supports the leaf often called a stem) has a sharply flat side. Well, so does Anthurium bonplandii subsp. guyanum. So that won't help a lot.

    But I didn't see any persisting fibers around the cataphylls. Again, for those not familiar with the scientific term, the cataphylls are the plant structures that form around a new leaf before it emerges. On some species it is persistent after the leaf fully expands. On others it disappears. And on still others, it remains as a fiberous clump.

    Most of the other features are a good match as described by Dr. Croat. Joep Moonen who works with these species (both of them) in French Guiana pointed out to me in a recent note that both species are closely related. And this is obvious if you compare them closely. But if you look closely at the leaf blade photos on TROPICOS you'll see the very interesting shape of the leaf blade all of us previously thought to be Anthurium jenmanii is actually quite different than that of the plant which produces the purple-red new leaves. It doesn't take a great deal of observation to be able to see the differences.

    My specimen has yet to produce a spathe and spadix so I couldn't make any comparisons using Dr. Croat's notes.

    Now, I'm certain most of you will find this boring. Please just ignore the post. But I enjoy learning the differences in species. And there are obvious differences in the true Anthurium jenmanii and the species correctly known as Anthurium bonplandii subsp. guyanum. Read the scientific journal and compare your plants. You'll find them. I'd enjoy hearing from those of you who also have an interest in scientific accuracy. Bill, Mike, Russ, Scott, can you do a comparison and post what you observe? And certainly, anyone else with these specimens, feel free to make your own observations. We're in this to learn, hopefully together.
     
  10. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    Other than the published descriptions, is there a pair of good photographs of each of the two plants so readers can determine which plant it is they have? I'm a bit confused now as to how to know what plant I have, especially since Fairchild Tropical Garden has one just like mine and they call it Anthurium jenmanii. In the absence of the pictures, do both plants have purple-red newly emerging leaves that gradually turn completely green? What is the shape (in everyday English) of each leaf? Are they both birdsnest types? Other than the names, is there some definitive way that the average collector/plant fancier can tell these two apart, or does it require expertise in taxonomy and/or plant anatomy to do so? I'm taking the point of view of someone who is not conversant in botanical terminology and just wants to know what plant is in their collection!

    LariAnn
    Aroidia Research
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2007
  11. bihai

    bihai Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    FL USA
    And that is EXACTLY the correct view to take.
     
  12. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    I have a call into Dr. Croat's office. The information from Bill and Denis indicates Tom said the one with the purple/red leaf is A. bonplandii guyanum and A. jenmanii does not have that characteristic. Dr. Croat's notes indicate a persistent catalphylls which persists only as fibers for A. jenmanii. The petioles of each are flattened on one side which is considered "D" shaped. They are obviously closely related. I'm told it will be close to two weeks until I get a positive answer from Tom. If you have a copy of the Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden 1991, volume 78, #3 you can read the scientific description of each plant. My personal specimen does produce the purple/red leaf when it first emerges which, according to Tom would indicate A. bonplandii guyanum. It does not have the persistent catalphylls as indicated for A. jenmanii which would also indicate A. bonplandii guyanum. Absent personally speaking with Dr. Croat I can only assume mine is A. bonplandii subsp. guyanum. I traded email today with an expert who works with both species and was advised mine is A. bonplandii. That grower also indicated that in the wild A. jenmanii is neither common nor rare while A. bonplandii guyanum is rare. Each grower will have to determine for themselves which they are actually growing. Frankly, I'm so fed up with the nasty mail this has stirred up I don't care what you call it. I'm ready to trash my specimens. All of them.
     
  13. bihai

    bihai Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    FL USA
    Well, gee, send your trash to me. I'd gladly take the mongrels and raise them, they'd be happy slumming here among the riff raff. I am always looking for free plants.
     
  14. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    IMHO, the TROPICOS picture of the leaves and inflorescences of A. jenmanii looks like a plant rather more similar to "regular' birdsnest types than to the plant I have, which for the record does have the purple-red leaves. My plant has a much more reticulate venation which the leaf shown in the TROPICOS picture of A. jenmanii seems to lack. So I must conclude that if the A. bonplandii subsp. guyanum has purple-red newly emerging leaves AND distinctively reticulate venation which, by the way, is atypical for monocots in general, than my plant is A. bonplandii subsp. guyanum.

    LariAnn
    Aroidia Research
     
  15. BigBill

    BigBill Member

    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Miami, Florida
    I am sorry if I started a fight on this board. I just wanted people to know some information about this plant that is very sought after and valuable. I have two of them in my nursery and one has seeds set on it right now. I have grown this plant in my nursery for about 15 years now and until recently I did not know people had the wrong name associated with it. When I found that out we contacted Dr. Croat and he backed up our name we had on our plant as bonplandii guyanum as being the correct name. My father is the two time president of the international aroid society and Dr. Croat is the formost exert in the field of anthuriums and they both say that it is bonplandii guyanum. I believe them but you can believe whoever you want to.
     
  16. trikus

    trikus Active Member

    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tropical North Queensland , Australia
    I have grown hundreds of these .. records kept of the source of most of the seeds recvd . Many were sent to Whyanbeel by Tom Croat or his assistant at the time Petra .
    I know he did do some hybrids between some Pachyneriums .
    Gave away seeds many times .
     

    Attached Files:

  17. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Brisbane Queensland Australia
    joclyn, how did I know that you loved purple lol ; )

    Nice photo Mick, they are a nice looking plant...

    Ed
     
  18. LariAnn

    LariAnn Active Member

    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Miami, Florida USA
    Does anyone else here find it interesting that this Anthurium misidentification may have started with a wrongly labeled plant at an IAS show, as Bill's post indicates? Am I to understand that with all the aroid people and experts reviewing, admiring, judging, and buying at the show, no one noticed that such a unique plant as A. bonplandii subsp. guyanum was tagged as a more ordinary looking species, A. jenmanii?

    This has me wondering what else might have been misidentified or mislabeled over the years at IAS shows. . .
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2007
  19. bihai

    bihai Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    118
    Location:
    FL USA
    That's a really, really valid point. It just doesn't seem plausible that it could have escaped the scrutiny of so many world renowned experts, as well as "other knowledgeable persons".
     
  20. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    I have no desire to comment on anything other than what has already been revealed by Bill. I did however today receive a second confirmation from an additional source this error has been known for some length of time by folks in botanical circles. Absent permission to post that note with a name, I will not.

    As to why no expert has commented, my guess, and it is only a guess, is neither of the species (Anthurium jenmanii or Anthurium bonplandii guyanum) was particularly popular prior to the big demand from Indonesia. As a result, most collectors had no reason to suspect they had a wrong name tag. You are certainly free to draw your own conclusions.

    I am still awaiting a response from Dr. Croat but do not expect that for close to two additional weeks. But the source today, and I promise almost anyone who knows anything about aroids knows the name, reiterated the plant with the purple red leaf is A. bonplandii guyanum, not A. jenmanii.

    I received mail from Joep Moonen in French Guiana over the weekend and Joep again stated A. bonplandii guyanum is rare in nature and A. jenamii is neither rare nor common, simply average. A careful reading of Dr. Croat's published material will soon make it obvious which plant is which.
     
  21. edleigh7

    edleigh7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Brisbane Queensland Australia
    Perhaps this is the case with a lot of aroids, and other plants. Once mislabelled or misidentified, it goes out into the market place to be handed on from nursery to nursery, person to person, somewhat like a branch of a tree!!

    It is also understandable, to me, that it could miss the trained of many aroid lovers, who are surrounded by all these beautiful aroids (I can only imagine it would be heaven lol)

    Ed
     
  22. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Siloam Springs, AR, USA
    The quote below was sent to me today. It was taken from a personal email to Denis Rotolante who is one of the owners, along with Bill (Big Bill), of Silver Krome Gardens in Homestead, FL. Silver Krome is almost certainly the largest grower of Anthurium and unusual aroid species in the United States. If you grow aroids, you're growing some of Denis' and Bill's plants.

    There has not been anything published since I published my revision of Anthurium sect. Pachyneurium in the Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden 78(3): 539-855.1991. The attractive, coriacious bird's nest sometimes called "jenmanii" sometimes A. bonplandii guayanum, sometimes as A. guayanum had the young leave reddish on the lower surface when young. I treated this as Anthurium bonplandii ssp. guyanum but it might just as easily be considered a distinct species as was treated by George Bunting. It is just that there is so much variation in all of those taxa that I could not find clear separation in them. Certainly this plant did not have anything really in common with A. jenmannii, a species which has a spathe that soon withers and falls off.

    Dr Tom Croat, Missouri Botanical Garden


    I still have a message awaiting an answer directly from Tom. But for any who would like to purport I somehow contrived or misquoted this, I am simply again quoting Dr. Croat. The journal Dr. Croat refers to is the same journal I referred to in a previous post. And Dr. Croat says the Anthurium with the purple/red leaf is not what everyone is calling it.
     
  23. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    20,890
    Likes Received:
    626
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    With hardy plants misidentified stock is common. Since tropicals are much greater in number of species and can be rare and poorly known it seems there would be plenty of potential for numbers of these to also be traveling under the wrong names.
     
  24. blackbeauty

    blackbeauty Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Malang, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
    The booming is now off here... Many frustrated people around me. Lol. Mostly people who just has a lot of money but doesn't love the the beauty of the plant itself.
     
  25. rareplantlover

    rareplantlover Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    deltona fl usa
    I May Love The Beauty Of A Plant But I Certainly Like The Correct Name On It As Well. I Cant Imagine Why Any One Would Attack Another For Offering This Helpful And Very Interesting Information. If You Dont Feel The Need To Know The Ids Of Your Species That Is Fine, But The More Intense Collectors Were Enjoying This, So Please Dont Ruin It For The Rest Of Us.
     

Share This Page