Should I return two plants?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Ronnnie C, Apr 17, 2024.

  1. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

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    I know Emery it doesn’t look good does it! Was so deeply potted I had no idea. I picked up three 1m standards, two Citrine and one Ruby Cascade for something like £15 each rather than £120..least I have another.. I will try and treat it as you suggest.

    I’ll post some photos of them in the Spring thread..they do have a weeping/cascading habit.
     
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  2. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    I have two questions please. Where do you get info like that? Is there a database somewhere?

    Also, I was going to ask. Of late, I've noticed a lot of acers in the garden center (the cheeper ones) seem to be growing on their own roots rather than grafted. Is it better to grown on its own roots from a cutting if you can or is it just cheeper?
     
  3. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Ronnie, well the short answer is, you join The Maple Society of Britain and Ireland (www.tmbsi.org) and in around 2 weeks there will be a searchable database, with about 4700 cultivar names of which around 1100 are synonyms. (E,g, Cascade Citrine (PBR) is a synonym for 'Sonkoot7', is sort of a trivial example). The names start from the original Japanese Lists (i.e. from 1695) compiled by Nakajima, and the base of the database is the World Checklist of Maple Cultivar Names, which Peter Gregory compiled over a 3 year period from 2005. Of course there are lots of additions and corrections (things that Peter couldn't have known about) as well, to start, over 500 short descriptions (don't know what the final number will be) and photographs of a small number (maybe 100) common cultivars. But this is just the first edition, we will soon be adding much more extensive photo coverage (e.g. the Esveld photo library, and the photos from the Japanese Maples books, just waiting for final permission for those).

    So you will be able to get the basic information from the database very soon indeed, with much more extensive photo and description coverage by end 2024.

    Or, the long answer: you can start researching! Of course there's a lot of knowledge right here at UBC, one of the things about the cv DB is it is completely vetted. In fact, Doug Justice of UBC is part of the group.

    The answer to your question is, maples are much stronger when grafted, especially a lot of the variegated or dissected cultivars. It was widely thought that rooted maples had a tendency to croak suddenly after 5-8 years, but the rooted maples you buy now are done with a "special process" that may prove different. The jury is out. Because a lot of supermarket-sold maples are already in poor condition when purchased, it's hard to say how long they would have lasted under any circumstances.

    We have a great visit coming up, to Wakehurst and Borde Hill, on 11-12 May, it would be excellent to see you there.

    Cheers, -E
     
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  4. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    OK, here is an update on the Mikawa Yatsubusa with the damaged stem: we were planning to return to the nursery (which is a past RHS gold medal winner) anyway, so I gave him a call and asked if he would mind swapping the plant for another. He was absolutely fine and said he would pick us out a nice one. I commented that I noticed the damage when I was going to repot it. I was surprised that he said quite forcefully that I must not repot the plants or I will kill them. He suggested leaving them in the pots for four years.

    I've repotted loads of plants and the only trouble I've had is one particularly tiny 4 inch grafted Seiryu I bought in Malvern about 5 years ago, which I put in a 10 inch pot.

    Any thoughts about repotting? If it is bad to repot a plant you just bought, what about planting them in the ground? Surely that would be worse.
     
  5. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hmm. Well I don't think I'll create any controversy by saying that's not good advice.

    It's true, if your maple is in an active growth phase, it is be a bad time to repot it. And these two are probably in that phase, depending on when they started to leaf out in the greenhouse. It's a trade-off of the risk of leaving it in over-wet greenhouse soil.

    But it is absolutely recommended to get the maple out of the nursery soil, if you waited 4 years it would be completely pot bound.

    The only exception I can thing of would be, if these are freshly rooted cuttings, repotting would be risky. But even a cutting can be safely repotted a year on, and these seem to have well developed root systems.

    What do others think of this advice? -E
     
  6. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Well i definitely remember seeing them in one of our local big garden centres around 5/6 years back as stated , but the strange thing was they were all large well brought on trees in 8ltr pots and selling at £48 ( that made me gasp) which is a lot of money and there must have been over 40 of them !! So one would think they must have had at least a good few years of development behind them before being released on to the general market at that size ??
     
  7. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    A
    Agree with Emery 100%, there maybe a chance of healing if there is just enough bark to get the nutrients to the canopy etc etc.
    I think after the copper treatment, I would also be placing it in some shade.
     
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  8. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

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    Thanks Derek, it’s most certainly in a shady spot..the canopy looks perfectly well so the nutrients are getting up there..

    Out of interest where do you get your copper treatment from please?
     
  9. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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  10. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    I've used it for growing conifer seedlings, and (as well as being ethically better) it is a vast improvement on peat. It is better draining, and retains its structure very well: unlike peat, it does not compact down into a sodden, anoxic, disease-promoting, root-killing gunk. Unlike one other comment, I never had any problems with wetting it when watering.
     
  11. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I agree, especially if the soil mix is designed to not dry out in a hot tunnel or greenhouse, it will be too wet for outdoors in UK type climate. Sometimes nurseries have them in a better mix with plenty of bark and perlite, and in that case I might leave them in the pot for a year or two, but certainly not four years!

    Equally, i have heard of nurseries who will only guarantee their acers if they are in the original pot. I guess this is to protect themselves from poor practices of novice growers. For example putting a small plant in a huge pot of unamended and poorly draining cheap commercial potting mix, or performing the operation in full sun on a hot day....
     
  12. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    To be clear: I'm not recommending using peat! On the contrary. Aside from the ethical issues, which are evident and profound, I just don't like the results. I'm not growing cuttings or conifer seed flats in a greenhouse, otherwise I might feel differently. For the same reasons I don't like peat (ethics aside), I'm not a big fan of coir: I don't like either peat or coir for maple seedlings.
     
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  13. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    The use of copper wash should perhaps be reconsidered.

    "Copper is an effective fungicide for controlling fungal, viral and bacterial infections. However a large body of research indicates copper fungicides have a considerable impact to humans and the environment."
    https://www.aih.org.au/copper-based-fungicides/

    The short article suggests an alternative.
     
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  14. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Regarding the potting issue. In the end I did not feel like driving 40 miles to return the plants so I repotted all four. The two bog standard plants, namely, the Phenix and the Seiryu had root systems filling the pot but not yet pot bound. (BTW, they did not seem to be grafted)

    When I turned the other two, more exotic, grafted varieties out of their pots, the medium dropped off except for about two inches which was retained by the roots. I'm pretty sure that they have been grown in the field, lifted with a severe root pruning and stuck in the pots. This must have been done no more than a year ago and possibly even this year. This explains why the nursery man said not to repot for several years. That advice was only given after I complained about the rotted stem on the Mikawa. I don't think I will go back to that place again. I'm tempted to leave a bad Google review but there was something about him that made me feel like he might be struggling.

    I repotted using my own mixture of natural peat, coir, perlite, soft sand and grit. I just mix it up till I feel it is right. If anybody has a more precise recipe please let me know and I might be able to incorporate.

    BTW, I've repotted at this time of year many many times and never had a problem. I've even done limited root pruning before placing in a bigger pot. I would, of course, hesitate to do a severe root pruning except when dormant.

    Lastly, I get the impression that the supplies to be bought in the "dope shops" is hight quality. After all, one would not skimp on the growth media for such a valuable crop. I got 100 litres for perlite for £25, which seemed OK value.
     
  15. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Hi Ronnie, I agree that a Copper wash will stay in the soil and can cause harm, if used irresponsibly. But using a Bordeaux mix paste on pruned tips of deciduous trees , ie maples when there is a fungal disease present, has been proven to be beneficial by members on the forum. I have never sprayed a copper wash as shown in the article and I would never suggest to anyone to do so.
    I do applaud and fully understand your concerns and for posting this important link to the thread.
     
  16. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Actually quite an interesting article in parts, thanks for posting. They do sort of say: sure, you've got to use copper in horticulture, but do be reasonable. That's good advice, copper is certainly a poison and damages aquatic fauna, runoff from vineyards that use (always) a lot of Bordeaux mix can be a real problem.

    I think most maple gardeners and even horticulturalists, unless they're growing everything inside and constantly battling botrytis, are using an insignificant amount of copper compared other users (like wine growers, again). I've never heard about copper being dangerous to bees, that's interesting. Most people know not to do copper drenching, which used to be recommended.

    Some of the other advice on the site, though is, um. Biodynamic cut paste? No thank you. The thing about all this Steiner-based methodology is it dates from the beginning of the 20th century. Not coming out about biodynamics generally, but this specific practice is known to be counter-productive since the 1950s. (With respect to the bonsai crowd).

    Sounds like about the standard price of Perlite, which does indeed vary hugely in quality. The "dope brand" (can't remember the name just now) is very good, I've bought cheap perlite, and it's been so dusty it's almost impossible to work with.

    -E
     
  17. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Gowsure perlite is £1.10 per liter in B&Q. Ouch!

    Talking about Steiner-based methodolgy, I've been looking for rooting powder and can't find any good old fashioned product of the chemical industry. It's all organic sea weed based. Does it work, anybody?

    As for compost emblazoned with the words "peat free" as if it is a good thing, I don't like the fragments of old crisp packets, fag ends and soft drink cups that the council ran over when they were mowing the verges. I bet there is lots of micro-plastic too but for all I know it helps the structure of the soil. :-).
     
  18. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yeah, as soon as you're paying terrarium prices, you're in trouble!

    Last time I bought any, got Clonex off the internet. I seem to remember someone saying the IBA powder was illegal now, but they still sell it in the Ag store in France, I think. Have never tried seaweed, but some of the old folks in the village (mostly gone now, sadly) used to swear by a willow bark decoction.

    When my old neighbor died a couple of years ago, the newbies came in to grow/sell organic plants. The first thing they did was buy a big truckload of composted green matter from the local recycling company. But what gets recycled? All the green waste that landscapers, orchard professionals, truck farmers, etc need to dispose of. In other words, it's been treated with every chemical under the sun, lots of them not even authorized for the general public any more. Maybe less micro-plastics than you're seeing, but that's about it! Lol, not exactly organic.
     
  19. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Sounds like a good start. I would suggest adding bark chips of the type sold for mulch in the UK. And if you can find it, composted bark or semi-composted bark, or make your own by leaving a big bag of bark chips in a sheltered place for a couple of years. The composted bark can take the place of some of the peat or coir (I think Emery already made the same point about the composted bark). I am also not convinced that sand is a good addition - I use perlite, grit (and bark) as the non water retaining ingredients and prefer them to be above the grain size of typical sand. I also like to add a small percentage of loam, either from the garden or in the form of a component of John Innes 2 or 3 or whatever commercial product is available.
    Yep, I've encountered sharp broken glass far too many times in the "environmentally friendly" recycled green waste based compost available in the UK for my liking, quite apart from all the other undesirables. I have had better luck with products that claim to be based on composted forestry byproducts or similar description - in other words they contain the composted bark, sawdust and wood fragments that are a byproduct of tree felling.
     
  20. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Hello again,
    The Mikawa ystsubusa is now in a very sheltered location but some of the leaves are looking sick. I've never had a sick plant before except when I forgot to water them. I would be grateful to know what is causing the problem. I hope it is not disease.
     

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  21. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi, looks like chlorosis, usually a mineral or nutrient deficit. I'd try Sequestrene (or equivalent) and see if it helps.

    I don't think it's sick, just not living its best life. :) Should be fine though.

    BTW, I don't like sand either, unless it's very sharp it seems to keep oxygen from getting to the roots.

    -E
     
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