Should I return two plants?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Ronnnie C, Apr 17, 2024.

  1. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Hi, I've been growing acers for years in pots and when they get too big I stick them in the ground. I discovered a nursery in Derbyshire, UK with some unusual cultivars that you don't get in the garden centers.

    When I potted up, I saw that all four of the plants were buried too deep in their pots (IMHO), with compost a good way up the stem. When I removed the compost I saw what appeared to be rot on the stem. I would be grateful for the opinion of anybody who has come across this problem. I am wondering if it will recover or should I return and swap for a different specimen?

    Thanks for your advice.
     

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  2. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Better close up of the Mikawa ystsubusa
     

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  3. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Hi Ronnie, I'm afraid it's a big problem with nurseries planting too deep and if it's left for a long time before it is purchased then the trunk rots.
    But looking at the pots in posting #1 I think they are ok.
    So the problem may well be vermin chewing at that trunk. Mice are a big problem with maple trunks and when they have girdled it, then that's it and all you have left is rootstock.
    IMO I would check to see if the damage is all the way round. If it hasn't, then clean all the wet mud from the trunk carefully and place chicken wire fully around it. Then it's just a matter of time to see if it heals and recovers. You will be surprised at how little bark is required to do this.
     
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  4. Otto Bjornson

    Otto Bjornson Contributor

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    Almost looks like a poor drainage issue within the pot / soil mix? I would carefully re pot with a fresh soil mix so you don't shock the tree.
    Or Plan B, monitor the pot and really watch the watering regime so that the soil is not looking completely saturated. Then do a complete bare root / re pot in the late fall.
    The foliage looks very healthy, so that is a very good sign.
     
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  5. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Thanks for both answers. I agree that the foliage looks healthy. However, the roots worry me. When I pot I aim to get the first root at soil level, which is where you see the first root of a wild grown tree. If I err, I aim to err with the tree on the high side. In fact, I think having some above ground woody roots gives the tree an attractive ancient appearance. I've never had an over watering problem, even when I go away for a month in the summer and leave the lawn sprinkler on them for 2 hours a night on a timer, and its rained every day I'm away!

    I've not seen anything like this Mikawa, and the Phoenix is the same. Look at this black root entering the stem. It looks healthy enough, it is just the color. The soil, or whatever it is around it is also black so I wonder if it is some kind of staining. I'd hate to spend a couple of years with this plant only to loose it and go back to square one.
     

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  6. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Hi Ronnie, I have to agree with Otto, that soil looks very wet and claggy. So I think it might be best to lift it in the late Autumn and place it in a pot of good quality potting soil that is free draining. I use John Innes No3 ( for mature maples) mixed with horticultural potting grit, peat and pine bark for all my maple potting. If I've had a problem with drainage, I also use perlite to open up the soil a bit more.
    I would also go down the route of a full root wash as well. This gives you a chance to see what the roots are like and if a root prune is necessary, which it probably will need as it's been in the ground.
     
  7. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Full root wash! I've never done that. I'll put it on the to do list. I stuck some 5ft specimens in the ground three years ago. The ones that I root pruned did well but the ones I neglected are looking very sorry. I just ran out of time and reasoned that they would eventually break out of the root ball. Now that I think about it, I'm thinking I could did down one quadrant and do an in situ prune without lifting the trees.
     
  8. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I would lift to wash, then root prune and place in a pot, as I stated in my earlier post.
     
  9. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

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    Personally, I’d take them back if they are likely to refund you, why would you take the risk!

    Phoenix is typically available in many outlets, Mikawa less readily available but definitely online
     
  10. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi, basically agreeing with the (most of the) others, I think the Phoenix is absolutely fine. The black root may have rotted, but a single root rotting is no threat to the entire plant. In the very first picture, I said to myself, "looks chewed, but has recovered". Could just be mice, even. Anyway I really think you're OK. Certainly change the soil.

    The Mikawa has a dead spot, and the infection is still active on the top part of it, but is already healing on the sides. It doesn't look to cover a huge part of the circumference. On the lower part, it's just dead bark hanging around, you could break it off with your fingers, or not. On the top, some regular copper spray will solve the problem. Again, change the soil, and my guess is it will grow out of it. This kind of understock injury is very common, as Derek points out, burying the understock is so common.

    I don't ever root wash, just knock the soil out enough to make sure the roots are all pointing the correct directions. If you don't do that now, you'll regret it later. But basically, roots are not delicate, like all parts of woody plants, when you cut them, it encourages growth. The danger comes with "when" not "if". So I try to avoid messing too much with roots while the plant is in a full growth period.

    If I sold those, I might refund the Mikawa, which is damaged, but not the Phoenix, that little black root doesn't look at all like trouble to me. Might exchange it, though.

    Cheers, -E
     
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  11. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Both of these plants still have the remains of the fibrous plug they started life in and I know what you mean about the soil. I've experimented over the years and found that too much grit is worse than too little. I was doing well with a mixture of pearlite and Westland Moss Peat but that became unavailable. There is one garden centre here that stocks Growmore Irish moss peat. However, it is not pure and seems to be a 50/50 mixture of peat and coir. Anybody got thoughts on coir? I bought a bag of the stuff the other day when the pearlite was unavailable at the local cannabis grower's supply shop. That's the only place round here you can get pearlite. Heaven knows why the police don't stake out the place. I guarantee that nobody is growing lettuce indoors under lights!
     
  12. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Needs a phone call to them !!!!?
     
  13. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Never used it at all, so will be interesting to hear how you get on with it.
     
  14. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yes, I've tried it. The only kind worth using has long fibres, which is not the compressed bricks you get at the cannabis grower's supply shop. That is much inferior to peat, dries very quickly and difficult to wet; can only be used in very small proportions. Esveld uses an "only coir" long fibre mix, but I think it's very unsuitable (too wet) for life outside the greenhouse, And stay away from the chunky coir, those big chunks are basically sponges: they take _forever_ to dry out.

    There's a very good supplier of substrate in the UK and Ireland, wish I could recall the name for you at the moment. Many nurseries use it, as they will make custom mixes if you buy enough pallets. They do partially composted pine bark in sacks, which is not always easy to get hold of, and their products are available at a few garden centers (although it's a big operation, mostly wholesale). I'm sure some searching would turn it up.

    I like partially composted pine bark (0-15mm) with volcanic rock (3-6 mm), perlite, and sometimes some pine chunks or fine gravel (river stone if you can get it, but again, expensive). Since calcium doesn't leach in the short term, I think you could use crushed shell, like what chickens are fed, for grit, haven't tried it though. How much grit really depends on specific location and watering regime; what's too much for you, might be just fine in a slightly different climate.

    WRT the "dope stores" (as we affectionately call them), here they pretend it's about tomatoes, in a vague way. Cannabis was decriminalized a little bit, a few years ago, but these suppliers have been in business for decades and are a quite useful source of certain hort supplies, like grow pots or perlite. I've always guessed that, while growing cannabis is illegal, selling indoor growing equipment is not?

    Cheers, -E

    P.S. get the plant plugs off of the understock. Those can cause years of problems if not corrected now. I must say, problems like that on your Mikawa, I see on the understock more often than on the grafted part of the plant itself. Have it on a Taylor at the moment, the top is fine, but an infection wound about double the size of what you've shown appeared on the understock. IMO it's because the stocks are forced to produce something you can graft on in 1-2 years, so they've never ripened properly.
     
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  15. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

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    @emery Were you thinking of Melcourt?
     
  16. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    That's it! Thanks Rich.
     
  17. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    As you say Derek nurseries seem plant ever so deep. Here's one i rescued three years back from B&Q which shows the point you are talking about , this was an end of season cut price give away and only cost me only £3.00 from memory . Completely changed the medium it was in and lifted the root flare just above medium level. This is now it's third full year and it's certainly looks better now than when i first bought it , only thing i don't like about this tree is it's name Brown Sugar !!! for goodness sake who thinks of these names ?? each time i look at it now i have images of Mick Jagger and Keith Richards prancing about :):) , even they don't play this song any more at concerts because it's deemed to offensive now ? 'Caramel Cascade' would have sounded nicer IMHO

    First two pics are it's first year with me , you can see the staining on the bark of how far down it was buried. Last three pics are from today with a big difference as you can also see , will be interesting to see what colours i will see as the season goes on?
     

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  18. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Brown Sugar is only the marketing name of this clone. The actual true name of the cultivar is 'JWW7'. Not sure if that is an improvement on Brown Sugar but at least if you write that on your tag you do not have to think about Mick and Keef!

    (I love the Rolling Stones' golden era but for at least the last 45 years they have been a parody band. Even earlier, say when Brown Sugar was released, they were never the same after Brian Jones checked out.)

    And your photo's show a very good example of raising the root flare, to get back on topic...
     
  19. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    From what i have found out about this tree/cultivar it was developed/marketed by Van Vliet New plants nl and they seem to have the licence etc , was really pushed very heavily in the UK larger type garden centres some 5/6 years back now from memory , but you don't see them very often now ??
     
  20. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

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    I made a dirty purchase of one in Homebase 2 years ago..we are suckers aren’t we lol

    I’ll post a couple of snaps in the Spring section tomorrow..assuming there is an interlude in showers!!
     
  21. Ronnnie C

    Ronnnie C Member

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    Their best period was with Mick Taylor 69 to 74, then it became dire. Personally, I'm more of a Dead head. Sorry, off topic again. It's been a while so I'm off to look for that spring section.
     
  22. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Mark,

    The breeder/developer is actually Jan-Willem Wezelenburg BV, (hence 'JWW7'') Van Viet New Plants is the License holder. It's described as having "brownish leaves" (hence Brown Sugar) in spring which turn bright red in summer. I researched and added it yesterday, though there is no date of introduction given. Cheers, -E
     
  23. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Generous Contributor

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    Anything to be done with this Citrine Cascade standard?? I picked it up cheap at the end of the season 16 months ago from a large garden centre chain..was very deeply potted. I didn’t repot till the following spring and found this..I’m going to be far more careful to inspect the foot from now on IMG_6037.jpeg IMG_6038.jpeg
     
  24. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Definitely JWW7, I have this one in my collection.
    It is a lovely cultivar and you have saved yours Mark looking at the photos.
    There are bargains to be had at the end of season and often once the Spring colours have gone. Garden centres like to move them quickly in June to make way for Summer bedding.
     
  25. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Rich, I'd be spraying copper regularly on that! Looks pretty rough.

    How is this plant, does it cascade? One of 3 in the "Cascade Series", from Van Son & Koot (hence a rooted cutting). The actual trade name is Cascade Citrine, 'Sonkoot7' introduced 2021.
     

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