Propagation: Problem with Beni Schichihenge

Discussion in 'Maples' started by dan19ini, May 12, 2013.

  1. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    Morning!

    I bought an Acer Beni Schichihenge about 2.5 years ago. It was around 6ft tall and in full leaf.

    This is its second spring in my garden. Both this year and last year the pink/green leaves that have opened up seem undersized. The tree has seemed to bud well but, as mentioned above, the leaves seem small when they open out.

    In the few small branches where the colour of leaf has reverted to green, the leaves are considerable large and look normal to me photo.jpg (reasonably large actually).

    Is this normal (the difference in size between the pink/green leaves and the reverted ones). How big should the pink/green leaves on this tree be normally?

    Any reason why this could be happening? Could the tree be getting too much sun or wind and this has affected it in some way? I understood that this variety doesn't mind sun very much.
     
  2. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    in case anyone can help with this.... for the first time I noticed quite a few small insects crawling around up the trunk of this tree...here is a picture. Could this be the problem?
     

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  3. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Hello,I'm just outside London and have had one of these in the ground for 3 years.It's taken everything the British weather has thrown at it and is in full sun and has never faltered.
    The normal variegated leaves are small,I'd say 1.5" on average,never more than 2".I've only experienced reversion once and yes,reverted leaves are nearly always much larger.
    I can only assume your plant is a little 'too happy' if reversion is frequent,is it in a container?...perhaps less fertiliser could be used.I also have a couple in pots and they're pretty well behaved too.I don't think sun is the issue but if less feeding doesn't stop the over-active growth then perhaps try shading a bit more.
    Can't see what the insects are but aphids/blackfly are very prominent right now.Ants will also be seen climbing the plant to farm these pests if they are present but they are not the cause for the reversions.
     
  4. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    hi... I am going try and post a second picture. The reversion is clearly not the issue - just interesting. These bugs could be it...here is a second, clearer, pic. It is not the scale insect from what I can tell.
     

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  5. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Hmm,we need an insect expert here though not scale insects.If they're not all clustering around the new growth sucking the sap then maybe of no concern.If it's a potted plant and they've just hatched from the soil then that could be more worrying.You can lift the plant out of the pot and see if there are any sort of larvae in there but they don't look like weevils to me.Unless someone can identify these and they don't seem to be doing any harm then perhaps don't worry,though I'm curious as to why they are climbing your plant....are you sure you haven't got greenfly/blackfly/aphids?
     
  6. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    well I am not sure where they are headed crawling up and down the trunk. It is in the ground, not in a plant pot... But something has to be behind the stunted growth of the new leaves - I wondered if it could be these things...
     
  7. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Are they particularly small then? I know it's been very windy this week and that seems to slow the growth of leaves on some of my maples.Looking at my beni schichihenge most leaves are no more than 1" across at the moment.
     
  8. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    well, I think they are: Yes, about 1 inch across (width). The reverted leaves are 3 inches across. Can you see the photo at the top of this thread. Do your leaves look like this at the moment? How big will your variegated leaves get?
     
  9. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    As I said,on average they end up about 1.5" across,some will be 2" but at the moment there are more at about 1" and many less...but they should get bigger.I don't think these insects are the issue,just the windy weather holding back the growth.We are lucky this plant is so tough as some others really haven't fared so well.
     
  10. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Sorry,I meant to add,ignore the size of the reverted leaves,the normal leaves will never be anywhere near as big.
     
  11. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    can you take a close up pic of the leaves of your B.S and post it here so I can take a look. Do they look like mine in the first pics I posted?
     
  12. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Not sure this will help,the largest leaves in first pic are about 1.5" but there are many smaller which I trust will get bigger.2nd pic is an overall appearance
     

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  13. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    well, size aside - your foliage is dense and lush. Mine is not like that at all.. just taking some pics....
     
  14. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    here are some pics of mine... the tree looks leggy and far from lush like yours in my view...
     

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  15. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    Damn this weather...I've just had to bring 2more young'uns indoors because they're wilting under the contant wind.
    Anyway,that's a fine tree you got there,where d'ya get it? It must be getting hammered by the wind also being quite tall,mine's shorter and multi branched,more like a bush.Looking at the general colour and appearance of your tree,I think the foliage still has some way to go,not properly formed yet.I think once the weather improves you will get bigger leaves as clearly a lot of them are still young.Obviously you can make the canopy more dense by pruning back to a pair of buds but personally,I like the more open look and a single trunked tree.
     
  16. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    Came from Wisley. You don't think I have a problem then? Could the wind have affected it? As I say, the foliage just looks weedy to me. I have other types of acer here which look great...
     
  17. maf

    maf Well-Known Member Maple Society

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    The extremely cold spring has held back the normal leafing out of acers in the UK this year. Give this tree a couple of weeks and reassess the situation, but I don't see anything to be too worried about in the pictures.

    Normally the maximum leaf size of Beni schichihenge is around 6cm. The bugs on the trunk are aphids.
     
  18. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member

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    So that's an aphid close up....cheers Maf I'd never have got that..Anyway,welcome to the forum Dan,as you'll find out, there's a wealth of experts on here,all more so than I,but I live just down the road so replied.Keep us posted,like to see that tree in all it's glory :)
     
  19. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    I really appreciate the messages. I didn't think that looked aphid like at all but there you go... So it must be eating the sap! I'll post a new pic in a few weeks... And see what happens
     
  20. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    can i use triticonazole and acetamiprid (a standard treatment for roses) on this acer to control these aphids?
     
  21. maf

    maf Well-Known Member Maple Society

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    Yes, it is somewhat surprising to see what some species of aphid look like up close!

    I haven't used those pesticides on Japanese maples so can't comment as to whether they are suitable. If you don't get any better advice it might be a good idea to test for leaf burn by spraying a single branch only. Some alternative methods for control are mentioned in this thread: Bugs on maple bush

    It is a strange year weather wise in the UK so far this year. I can hardly believe that it is mid May and some of my Acers are only just starting to leaf out.
     
  22. Daniel Otis

    Daniel Otis Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I'm in the US, so perhaps the aphid issue is different here, but I've grown hundreds of maples for almost 25 years, and they've never been harmed by aphids. Vascular fungus is the bane of my maples. I wouldn't worry about the aphids. I think that ants store populations of aphids underground over winter and then bring them up when trees leaf out. I sometimes see aphids on young growth on maples early in the season, but natural predators take care of them within a few weeks--ladybugs and their larvae eat aphids for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Probably tea, too, in England. I've sometimes hosed them off a plant with a mist spray. If you think it's necessary to address them, I'd use something relatively benign like insecticidal soap (but test it on new growth first).

    As you probably know, variegated sections of palmatum leaves are often smaller and distorted. Vertrees give the leaf size of 'Beni' as "up to 6 cm in length and spread." He also says it's not a strong-growing tree type, but tends to be a twiggy shrub. I found it difficult; I've killed it at least twice. I agree with others, though, that your tree seems fine. Should the branches that have normal, unvariegated leaf reversions be trimmed off? Vertrees seems to suggest it isn't necessary, and agrees with Houzi's suggestion that too-fertile soil might be an issue. I still see some reversions on trees growing an absolutely barren soil, though.

    My trees here in New York have been if full leaf for two weeks, but there's talk of frost tonight and tomorrow. Millions of flowers out now; I hope we don't lose them as we did last year.
     
  23. dan19ini

    dan19ini New Member

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    Thanks Daniel. Maybe i am over-reacting but i just think that the trees leaves don't look right - i must try and find a photo of what the tree looked like when i bought it!... the spring here has been really weird actually - so everything is delayed.

    Someone at the Royal Horticultural Society suggested that the roots may not be spreading out properly. Do you know anything about digging a tree out and opening the root ball out to help the tree?
     
  24. pat bateman

    pat bateman Member

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    "can i use triticonazole and acetamiprid (a standard treatment for roses) on this acer to control these aphids?"

    I've never had a problem using Provado on my acers.

    "Someone at the Royal Horticultural Society suggested that the roots may not be spreading out properly. Do you know anything about digging a tree out and opening the root ball out to help the tree?"

    I don't see how anyone can know that. I don't think digging it up and opening up the root ball will be helping the tree - quite the opposite in fact ! Of all my trees, Shiraz has been most effected by the cold spring and is the furthest "behind". I think your tree is in good health - just give it a few weeks until we get some warmer weather and it catches up.
     

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