phalaenopsis orchid seedling, help please

Discussion in 'HortForum' started by chilipepper, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. chilipepper

    chilipepper Active Member

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    recently, I purchased a Phalaenopsis equestris X Doritis pulcherima orchid. I do not have much idea of how to raise it but I was too tempted to buy it. may anyone give me some advice (fertilizing, watering, basic care), anything could help. i am guessing that it is about a few weeks old (just deflasked) . Also, it is living on a windowsill and climate here is warm and humid.

    thank you
     
  2. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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  3. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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  4. togata57

    togata57 Contributor 10 Years

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    Chilipepper, could we see a photo of your orchid?
     
  5. chilipepper

    chilipepper Active Member

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    thanks to everyone!

    I will try my best to give you a photo of the orchid. the shopkeeper said it was a new breed.
     
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  6. togata57

    togata57 Contributor 10 Years

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    Cool! My interest is piqued!
     
  7. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Both Phalaenopsis equestris and Doritis pulcherima are indeed beautiful. The "x" indicates pollen from one was applied to the other to produce a new hybrid. Since it takes at least 7 years for a new hybridized plant to produce a blooming plant this one should indeed be beautiful.

    I'll need to do some reading on this one since normally the genetics would prevent cross pollination between different genera.

    Phalaenopsis equestris X Doritis pulcherima
     
  8. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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  9. chilipepper

    chilipepper Active Member

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    sorry, its not in bloom, but i can show you a photo of how it is now. also, i thought Doritis and phalaenopsis are synonyms?

    thanks chimera, i was trying to figure out how to post photos

    this is a seedling, so i am not sure when it would flower

    did you make that site!
     

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  10. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I checked the Royal Botanic Garden Kew checklist and they are in fact synonyms. At first I thought they could be allies of some sort.
     
  11. maf

    maf Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Doritis used to be considered a different genus to Phalaenopsis, but apparently DNA evidence means they are now included in Phal. Not all experts agree and the name is still often used. Dor x Phal hybrids were/are called Doritaenopsis.
     
  12. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that explanation I've been digging in all of my orchid books but couldn't come up with a good answer. The question would remain, are these genera allies?
     
  13. chilipepper

    chilipepper Active Member

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    so they do have a little difference.
    can anyone tell me about how long it takes for this seedling to flower?
     
  14. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Orchids indicates the genus Doritis is terrestrial while the genus Phalaenopsis is epiphytic and grows on a tree or it its branches. I can see where the confusion arises since the growth form is sometimes considered an indicator as to genus.

    I'm still digging.
     
  15. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    I just found this on the web but I can't find out who wrote this or their credentials:

    Doritis
    Pronunciation: doe-RYE-tis Tribe: Vandeae Subtribe: Sarcanthinae

    Very closely related to Phalaenopsis, Doritis is a genus of small to medium-sized, predominantly terrestrial plants native to southeast Asia. The showy, medium-sized flowers are strongly allied to Phalaenopsis and freely interbreed creating thousands of registered Doritaenopsis hybrids. These intergeneric hybrids commonly behave more like their Phalaenopsis ancestors and should be treated or grown as such. Christenson, in his Phalaenopsis Monograph sinks Doritis, as section Esmeralda, into synonymy with Phalaenopsis and the Kew World Monocot Checklist has accepted this taxonomic revision. While hybrids continue to be registered as Doritaenopsis, this may change in the near future if the RHS Registrar also accepts the revision. The name Doritis is derived either from the Greek dory, spear – an allusion to the lip shape or from Doritis, a name given to the goddess Aphrodite. While many Phalaenopsis inflorescences tend to gracefully arch, those of Doritis are stiffly erect, an adaptation resulting from their terrestrial habitat. Doritis also bloom during the summer and are characterized by a dark, cerise color, which is shared with many of its hybrid progeny (the bright red lip of many hybrid Doritaenopsis is believed to be inherited from the Doritis background as well). The most commonly grown species of this is D. pulcherrima.

    If you want to learn more, join the International Phalaenopsis Alliance (IPA), an AOS affiliated specialist group.
     
  16. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    According to the Missouri Botanical Garden website TROPICOS, the genus Doritis Lindl. is still a a valid name.

    All of the Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London websites are now down for servicing so I can't verify this on either the International Plant Names Index or the world Checklist of Selected Plant Families.

    I have contacts at both gardens and will work on it again tomorrow.
     
  17. maf

    maf Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Photopro, it will be interesting to see what you find out, I have been curious about this since seeing Doritaenopsis in the phal section of websites of UK orchid sellers. From what info I can gather, (as a non-expert on orchids) it seems everyone was happy to see them as separate genera until they looked at the DNA.


    Impossible to say for sure but someone told me a Phal needs a minimum of four mature leaves to function as an adult (flowering) plant, and yours has four leaves so this year is possible.
     
  18. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    Taxonomists seem to like messing with the names of plants. I'm sure there is a valid reason for it, but sometimes there isn't, and they end up changing them back a few years later! Drives hobbiests crazy! To answer your question, which I think has been answered already, Doritis and Phalaenopsis are related, and at one point, were/are considered the same (depending on who you ask - not everyone accepts what taxonomists say).

    Orchids of related alliances can be hybridized together. Phalaenopsis and Doritis are in the Vanda alliance, allong with Vanda and other 'vandaceous' orchids like Angraecum. Similarily, the Cattleya alliance includes Cattleyas, Laelias, Sophronitis, Brassovola and a few more genera. They can all be hybridized together. Growth habit (terrestrial or epiphytic or otherwise) makes no difference.

    I did some looking, and it seems that the cross that you have has been made before, and has been named. http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/orchidregister/orchiddetails.asp?ID=74975 It is a rather old hybrid too, so deffinitely nothing new here, although the breeder could have used better parents on this cross. Show us pictures when it blooms! Here is what it could look like, as there is always variation with seed-grown plants: http://www.phals.net/doritis/pulcherrima/PurpleGem_e.html

    Speaking of that, if grown well, your plant should be blooming within the year (or maybe two). This sounds unbelievable, but it's true. Who was the vendor and/or hybridizer? Is there a name attached to the plant, or was it not bought at an orchid vendor? To give a size reference, how big is the pot you have it in? What is the leaf span?

    For culture, I'll send you to this site: http://www.bedfordorchids.com/#Plant The best Phal grower and breeder in Canada. His culture page: http://www.bedfordorchids.com/culture.htm

    Good luck, and do post a pic when it flowers!
     
  19. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    Although I would disagree with a taxonomist "messing" with the names, I have written to the taxonomist at the Kew in London, Rafaël Govaerts, who often does some of the final work for Kew as it ends up on all the websites. Rafaël and I have corresponded recently over another species which has been very confusing to collectors but this one is a member of the family Araceae. As a result of some of the research I completed with two other serious collectors Kew has now modified some of the information on their sites.

    The job of a taxonomist is to verify or challenge the currently accepted status of a variety of species. In short, they seek errors based on the rules laid out by Carl Linnaeus several hundred years ago.

    Sometimes species are found to have been placed in the correct genus as an accepted name but that name may have technical errors which later require it to be sunk into synonym with another previously accepted name or declared to be improperly published. It is all very technical (way above my level of expertise) and of late some changes are made as a result of work on the DNA. Just as frequently in some species the changes are made due to the sexual characteristics of a plant.

    As for the genus Doritis I haven't a clue. It certainly appears to be allied with Phalaenopsis since they will cross. Maybe I'll get an answer tomorrow.
     
  20. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    When I say 'messing', I mean one taxonomist publishing a paper changing a name of a plant based on his findings, then another taxonomist publishing another paper changing the name again with his findings, then, some other taxonomist and possibly the same one, publishing a paper changing the name back to what it orginally was, based on new findings!! The current changes within the Cattleya alliance are a perfect example, as well as the changes within the long-petaled Phragmipediuim species. The RHS has to go along with these changes, and it just makes a huge mess. Yes, some of these changes are valid, and I agree with them, but I for one, at least for now, will not call a Laelia purpurata a Sophronitis purpurata!! It just seems very unnecessary sometimes. To prove my point, all or most of the changes to the Cattleya alliance done recently have been un-done. Why? Why were they changed in the first place?

    Anyway, this is getting away from the main point of this thread, but it is just a real pain sometimes.

    The most common accepted classification for Doritis pulcherrima is that of a monotypic genus - only one species in the genus. It is accepted as a separate genus from Phalaenopsis, but still related, which is why the two can be bred together.
     
  21. chilipepper

    chilipepper Active Member

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    speaking of phragmipedilums, how do you tell the difference between paphiopediums and phragmipedilums?

    thanks for all the info, i would love to know more!
     
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  22. photopro

    photopro Well-Known Member

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    According to Rafaël at Kew, the genus Doritis is no longer valid.

    Thanks for all the input, very good discussion!
     
  23. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    That's a very good question, and I wish I could give you a simple answer. I've been wrestling with this same question myself. I am very familiar with the 'look' of many orchid genera, so I can usually tell what genera an orchid belongs to, but I can't explain why it does. If you look just at plant structure, this is fairly straight forward: Phrags, for the most part, have thin grass-like leaves, where no Paph species does. So, if you see a slipper orchid with thin, grass-like leaves, it is a Phrag. For Paphs, you can have stiff, thick green leaves; dark mottled green/grey leaves; semi-stiff green leaves or wide, flat green leaves. These are then divided into different groups - the mottled leaved ones can either be from the Parvisepalum group, the Brachypetalum group or a few others. The stiff, thick green leaved ones are the multi-floral ones (many flowers at once). The semi-stiff leaved ones are species like insigne and gratrixianum. The mottled leaved ones can be species like armeniacum (a Parvi), bellatulum (a Brachy) or callosum (section Barbata). The sequential flowered ones have wide, flat green leaves.

    That's the best I can do for that. I can't pin down what is different about the flowers, I just know I can tell the difference - I just can't explain it.

    The habitat is also very different. Paphs generally are forest floor dwellers, that grow in leaf litter. Phrags generally are water lovers, that grow in very moist or wet areas, sometimes at the sides of rivers or streams where they can actually be submerged from time to time. Phrags also generally like a lot more light than Paphs. I say generally, because there are many species of each, and the like different conditions.

    I hope that helps a bit.
     
  24. chilipepper

    chilipepper Active Member

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    can you tell through the flower
     
  25. kevind76

    kevind76 Active Member

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    That's what I was trying to say - it is very difficult to tell just with the flowers. I asked some 'experts' before I commented here, and it seems they don't have an answer either. So, sorry about that. Unless you want to get very technical and start disecting the flowers, you won't have any luck. The only way seems to be to get familiar with the species, then you will be able to pick them out easily. Plant structure and habit are the best ways to tell them apart. And the fact that Phrags only grow in Central and South America, and Paphs only grow in Asia.
     

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