Here in my hometown (Ingolstadt, Germany) is an old (perhaps 30 years old) japanese maple in the city-garden. I have the book from Vertrees "japanese maples" but I cannot find out what culivar it is. I spoke with the leader from the city-gardening, but nobody knows what the name of the cultivare is. Last week I made some photos. Is there anybody who can help, give an answer what cultivar it is? Here are the photos: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-6w-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-80-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-8d-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7x-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7t-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7u-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-8c-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-81-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-82-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7w-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7v-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-8b-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7l-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7m-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7s-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7j-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7k-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-76-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-75-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-73-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-87-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-86-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7r-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-74-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7b-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-8a-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7g-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7h-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7y-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-88-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-89-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-83-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-84-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7o-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7p-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-7q-jpg.html kind regards, Dan
That's a beautiful tree (and it looks like a lovely park, as well). I'm sorry I can't help with the ID.
Hello kaspian, yes, indeed it is a very beautifull tree, but although the problem is the identification. Perhaps it is an old cultivar and today not so well known. Here is a description of the leaves: The leaves are divided allways in seven lobes, within 1 - 1,5 cm of the leaf base. The lobes are elliptic-ovate which taper to long, slender points. The leaves are 6 - 8 cm long and 8 - 11 cm wide. The three central lobes are on the widest point 1,3 - 1,7 cm wide, the outer lobes are smaller. At the point the lobes comming together (1 - 1,5 com from the leaf base) the lobes are 0,5 - 0,7 cm wide. The margins of the outer 3/4 of each lobe are partly double serrated with sharp teeth. The lower 1/4 is untoothed. The petiols are red ore in shade redish-green and 2,5 - 3,5 cm long. In full shade the leaves are complete fresh green, in light shadow the inner part of the leaves and the veins of the leaves are green, the margins of the lobes and the points are red; the base color ist also green but blend over a bright red, in full sun the upperside of the leaves is, except the veins, whole bright red. The tree is round about 8 m hight, perhaps a little bit higher. It should be at all surprised if we can not find out together what cultivar it is. Daniel
Hello, I think I know now what cultivar the acer palmatum (see pictures above) is. It is in my opinion 'Iijimago sunago'. The picture from 'Iijimago sunago' in Vertrees book is not typical concerning the form of the leaves and it shows the leaves from ‘Iijimago sunago’ in summer, my pictures are from the beginning of June, the measures of the leaves in the description from Vertrees are al little bit larger, but that may be because my plant is really an old one. The leaves on old wood are usually a little bit smaller. When I saw the pictures from mjh1676 and mendocinomaples here http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=8472 my first thougt was that the leaves on the pictures and the leaves from my tree are belong to the same cultivar. The form of the leaves is definitely the same and this form is different from all the others. The form is identical and also the color. They are the same leaves and I think the same plant. Thank you. The measure of the tree corresponds with the dates in Vertrees book (round about 8 m hight). I will look, how the color of the leaves is changing as the season advances, and if it will get a purplish brown with tiny and irregular green spots resembling sprinkled sand, how Vertrees write. Daniel
Normally not, the winter are cold here (til - 25°C) sometimes wet and the summer dry and hot. Osakazuki does well and Bloodgood and atropurpureum and shirasawanum aureum and japinicum aconitifolium also does well, when they grow on a protected place but the most of the acer palmatum are to sensitive for the climate here and do not survive for a long time. So I first thougt that the maple may be osakazuki but that could not be, because of the color of the leaves. Now I'm surprised. Iijima sunago seems to be hardy enough for the climate here and unpretendig. The tree stands by the side of a footpath and visitors from the park café come and lean their bikes on the tree. The groud around is hard, not loose. In the last years the climate began step by step get a little bit warmer. When this development advances more acer palmatum will grow here in future. But I'm surpriesed because this tree is older than 30 years, and the climate was much colder than it is now. The rivers here, Isar and Donau former regularily freeze over, but in the last 15 years they do not. The climate is changing and many plants, former do not grow here, will now grow here. Thats a good thing not a bad one. The changig of the climate is not man made how some stupid and dangerous politicans said.
A photo here of the seeds, samaras, might also help. If there is already one in the photo links posted ,sorry if I missed it. You may get more participation with a few photos posted here in the thread, just a suggestion.
Without corroborating documentation I'd be real cautious about assigning a cultivar name to a Japanese maple. A seedling could even look quite like a named introduction and still not be that same one. In fact, certain types may come up frequently and repeatedly from seed - resulting in a number of similar named clones as well as a multitude of unselected seedlings that look like them.
Very true , and any propagation from the tree given a supposed cultivar name could then further complicate matters.
I think Ron is absolutely right You have a much greater chance of being totally wrong than of being correct :)
There is near by exact the same plant, same age, same shape and color of the leaves and same habitus. You may be right, but I think in Germany, 30 years ago, this is not propabel. There were only Esveld and a few other maple-nurseries, the situation is not like in the USA and acer palmatums were for a long time very rare plants here. Only the last few years situation began to change. The shape and the spring color (rich orange-red with green-yellow veins) of the leaves compares with the description by Vertrees. The shape is extraordinaire, like a cross between the matsumurae-group and the amoenum-group and not usual. I will wait till summer and see if the color will change to a rich purplish brown with tiny and irregular spots, resembling sprinkled sand, how Vertrees write. When the leaves do so, the case is clear if not the case is yet undissolved and you may be right.
Dan, you have to see Iijima sunago throughout the growing season. The sand sprinkle should start to show up in late Spring, early Summer and then will fade out by mid to late Summer. If you look at all of the plants in the photo gallery link you listed, you will see some real variance just in those plants. Even the all green (aocha) leafed photos from Matt show the right leaf sizes and shapes for the old form Iijima sunago. The Fall color shown by Ed is right for this Maple (He is in a area that should show the Fall color better than what we see here, whereas we are more likely to see the changing of colors this Maple makes in a growing season that several other areas may not or do not readily see). I suggest you find out where this tree came from such as Esveld or from an English nursery. The photo of the Vertrees plant is not the same Maple as the Iijima sunago I have and have been around the most. Then again Iijima sunago is a series of Maples, more than one of them and there are slight differences in leaf color and leaf shapes in them, including one related named form heptalobum that does not produce a Fu at all and this Maple may be it but it is too early to tell. Have to see the Spring leaf out before, right at full leaf expansion and soon afterwards and then see the Summer coloration, the fading or wash out of color during the Summer and then the Fall color. Leaf sizes on new growth should be different during the growing season as well with the last flush of late Summer new growth being the same leaf size and color as the early Spring growth. Find out where this Maple came from, who it came from and whether it is a seedling, rooted cutting or a grafted plant and we can move forward from there. Jim
Hello Jim, Thank you for your answer. You wrote: “Dan, you have to see Iijima sunago throughout the growing season.” Yes, that is the point. “The sand sprinkle should start to show up in late Spring, early Summer and then will fade out by mid to late Summer.” That means that the sand sprinkle shold start now! “If you look at all of the plants in the photo gallery link you listed, you will see some real variance just in those plants. Even the all green (aocha) leafed photos from Matt show the right leaf sizes and shapes for the old form Iijima sunago. The Fall color shown by Ed is right for this Maple (He is in a area that should show the Fall color better than what we see here, whereas we are more likely to see the changing of colors this Maple makes in a growing season that several other areas may not or do not readily see).” The pictures from Matt and Ed shows in my opinion another leaf-shape than my pictures do. The fall color is also different, I belive. The owner of the park-café said to me that the fall color is total intense fire red. “I suggest you find out where this tree came from such as Esveld or from an English nursery.” That is impossible. I spoke with the leader of the city-gardening and he told me that the trees were planted more than 30 years ago and that there do not longer exist any documents concerning the purchase and origin of the plants. “The photo of the Vertrees plant is not the same Maple as the Iijima sunago I have and have been around the most. Then again Iijima sunago is a series of Maples, more than one of them and there are slight differences in leaf color and leaf shapes in them, ...” Thank you for this information. “... including one related named form heptalobum that does not produce a Fu at all and this Maple may be it but it is too early to tell. Have to see the Spring leaf out before, right at full leaf expansion and soon afterwards and then see the Summer coloration, the fading or wash out of color during the Summer and then the Fall color. Leaf sizes on new growth should be different during the growing season as well with the last flush of late Summer new growth being the same leaf size and color as the early Spring growth. Find out where this Maple came from, who it came from and whether it is a seedling, rooted cutting or a grafted plant and we can move forward from there.” How can I find out whether it is a seedling, rooted cutting or a grafted plant? Is there a possibility to know by the tree wether it is a seedling or a grafted plant? The origin of the Maple is unknown, nobody can find out. The Maple was planted more then 30 years ago by the city-gardening. The gardener who planted the maple do not longer work in the city gardening. Documents concerning the purchase or origin of the Maples do not longer exist. Nobody in the city-gardening knows something about these trees. The only possibility is to observe the tree throughout the season and look for the changing of the leaf-color. Here are some more Photos of the leaves photographed on a white sheep of paper: with petioles: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-8w-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-8x-jpg.html Underside: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-8y-jpg.html young leaves: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-90-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9j-jpg.html leaves some hours a day in direct sunn: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9r-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-93-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-94-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-95-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-96-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-99-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9c-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9d-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9e-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9k-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9o-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9p-jpg.html leaves all the time in full shade: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-98-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9a-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9f-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9i-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9b-jpg.html leaves in partial shade (only filtered sunnlight): http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9m-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9l-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9g-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9h-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-91-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-97-jpg.html http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2tin-9q-jpg.html P.S. I sent the photos also to Cor van Gelderen and asked him if he can tell me if the acer palmatum on the pictures is “Iijimago sunago” and he answered and said that “the leaf shape and colour both are not of 'Iijima sunago'.” Dan
Those pictures show some incredibly beautiful leaves - of the shape and color I'm most fond of in Japanese maples. Hopefully someone can help you with the correct identification of that tree. I'd be very interested myself to know which one it is.
