Identification: Ojochin? - single, slightly mauve-white blossoms, bronzy green leaves, mid-season

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by wcutler, Apr 12, 2007.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    This is not a question, but comments and corrections are very welcome.

    Ojochin, the rare lantern cherry, so named for its plump buds, is not one the VCBF scouts will have to keep track of, as I understand the only one in Vancouver is in Nitobe Gardens. This delicate-looking tree has large pink buds that open to mauvy-white single blossoms. Photos were taken April 12.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,771
    Likes Received:
    60
    Location:
    Fraser Valley, B.C. ,Canada
    Thanks for showing us that one, nice pics. Would be interesting to see a closeup of the unopened buds and mature bark if possible sometime. Is it a form of Prunus serrulata ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2007
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    20,033
    Likes Received:
    259
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Most large-flowered Japanese cherries are hybrids involving more than one species rather than selections of Prunus serrulata. The practice of listing them as P. serrulata 'Kanzan', 'Shirotae' etc. while common is incorrect.
     
  4. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    24
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I originally identified this cherry in Nitobe Memorial Garden as 'Ojochin'. Now, I'm not entirely sure. The leaves on this specimen are "remarkably bristled" as Kuitert points out, the buds are inflated, the flowers are a soft pink and aren't particularly fragrant, but I could not find a flower with extra petals. Again, Kuitert's diagnosis includes "often with a few extra petals, sometimes up to ten." Comments?
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    20,033
    Likes Received:
    259
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    The only thing that bothers me about how this tree looks is that the flowers seem to have more narrow petals with a cross-like appearance, in the manner of an anemone, whereas the multiple 'Ojochin' I have looked at down here have a broad-petaled appearance, more like a poppy. This point may not be diagnostically significant, of course. If the specimen being discussed were down here and I wanted to check it my next step would be to pick a specimen and compare it to other 'Ojochin' here.
     
  6. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    24
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Yes. Or you could fire a piece into a flatbed scanner and sent the image to me to compare.
     
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    20,033
    Likes Received:
    259
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Didn't see this reply until today. Tree asked about on Wendy's recent other thread I do think is quite like 'Ojochin'.
     
  8. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Here are some more photos of the tree in Nitobe Garden that we've been calling Ojochin, for comparison with the What Cherry? that might be Ojochin. We didn't see any extra petals.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Are we still wondering about the tree we're calling 'Ojochin' at Nitobe Memorial Garden? I didn't see any extra petals on the blossoms today, but I didn't remember that I was supposed to be looking.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    We are still wondering about the ID of this tree, and there are two current contenders, discussed in private emails, so I'm putting them up here, hoping we can get some more info on these.

    'Senriko':
    See photo on a Google Translated page called The Flower Calendar Bann (do a browser search for Senriko; it's about a third of the way down).

    From Arnold Arboretum:
    Senriko. Flowers semi-double, very large, pale pink passing to
    white. Fragrant.
    From Kuitert:
    Sen-ri-ko translates as "thousand-miles-fragrance,"...​
    Japanese Flower Association book describes the stipules of 'Senriko' as "long, much divided."

    We have not noticed any fragrance on this tree. Kuitert says "Senriko resembles 'Ariake' in the smallest detail", yet Douglas has rejected 'Ariake'. And we have not noticed any staminodes or extra petals. Good match on the calyx, sepals and relative length of the stamens and pistil. Is it true we don't have any stipule photos?

    'Koke-shimizu':

    See hccweb5 photo

    Some Google-translated words of description:
    A long incision is characterized by thin petal texture. Also, get there in the way the petals slightly forward. Remain part of the petals slightly darker continue flowering. The other end of the petals cut into large, small incisions can also be seen. The bell-shaped calyx tube length of jumps in sepal triangular-shaped egg.
    The pedicels may be too short, according to this photo on this Institute of Genetics page. Good match on the colour, slightly forward petals, relative length of stamens and pistil, green calyx.
     
  11. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Here are the missing stiplule photos; the one on the left is Douglas Justice's, which I don't think I've dated correctly. Douglas wrote in an email:
     

    Attached Files:

  12. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    I've posted stipule photos in the Ojochin - late mid-season, huge double white blossoms, bronze leaves thread. I'm copying here two of the Stanley Park photos that I find most ambiguous, and a zoom-in of my photo from this Nitobe tree.


    Stanley Park Ojochin
    - to me, in the first photo, the stipules look divided, but they don't look that way in the other photo. There are more photos in the thread linked to above. I think the glands look more colourful. I even got a fruit in the second photo.
    20110514_StanleyPkMemorial_Ojochin_Cutler_P1110863.jpg 20110514_StanleyPkMemorial_Ojochin_Cutler_P1110902.jpg

    Nitobe tree in question in this thread. There seemed to be a lot more stipules on this tree than on the Stanley Park one, or maybe they've already dropped off that one.
    20110513_Nitobe_Ojochin_Cutler_P1110753c.JPG
     
  13. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Mariko asked to see a photo of the blossoms when they were finished. Of course, I was looking to photograph ones still in the best shape, and now they're entirely gone. Here's one with two blossoms that have lost half their petals, from April 24. And another couple of stipule photo for Douglas, the second one from three years ago.
    20110426_Nitobe_Ojochin_Cutler_P1100681.jpg 20110426_Nitobe_Ojochin_Cutler_P1100677.jpg 20080425_Nitobe_Ojochin_Cutler_4762.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2011
  14. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan but I still miss Vancouver
    Wendy asked me to translate about Senriko and Koke-shimizu. But I didn't know what to translate. So it took very long time.

    Gakken book has only Koke-shimizu on page 127. So I translate it first.

    Koke-shimizu (Cerasus lannesiana’Angustipetala’ Miyoshi)
    Number of petals: 5
    Flower Diameter : 3.4~4.2cm
    Garden variety of Sato-zakura; It was spread from Arakawa River Bank in the Meiji era. Meaning of the name is unknown. It has a lot of flowers; the contrast of the yellow-green leaves and pale pink flowers is very beautiful. The petals are rather narrow and long and the edges of the petals are a little darker colour than the middle parts and there are notches at the tip. 1 normal shape pistil sticks out. You can see similar colour flowers (edges of the petals are darker pink) in wild Yama-zakura, but Koke-shimizu has yellow-green young leaves and serrated sepals. So Koke-shimizu is classified as Sato-zakura.

    Somments of Flowering cherries New Edition are long and hard to translate.
    The Website of the National Institute of Genetics has all 3 cherries. So I translate those.After the translation, I post pictures of each flower I (or my husband) take and the link to the pictures.

    1. Ojochin (Prunus lannesiana Wils. cv. Ojochin)
    The name of Ojochin came from the large flowers blooming like large lanterns hang down because of long pedicels and peduncles. Grown-up leaves are large and oval shape, single or double serration, aristate, no hair. Petals are round shape, wrinkled like waving. Sepals sometimes have aristate serrations.

    Tree heights: middle size, Color of new buds: Brown, Serration of the leaves: single or double Shape of the tip of the serration: aristate, Back colour of the grown-up leaves: Light green, Presence of the hair on the back of grown-up leaves: no, Presence of hair on the top of the grown-up leaves: no, Shape of the grown-up leaves: Oval shape of upside-down egg, Presence of the hair on leaf stocks: a little, Blooming season: Mid-April, Opening of the leaves at the blooming time: After flower blooming, Flower colour: Pale pink, edges of the petals are darker pink. Flower bud colour: pale pink, Flower type: Single, Number of the petals: 5, 6-10, vexillums, 11-15, Size of the flower: large (3.6-5.5cm), Shape of the petals: round shape, Number of the pistil(s): 1, Phylloid change of the pistil(s): No, perfect shape, Length of the pistil and stamens: pistil > stamens, Hair of the style(s): no Flower arrangement: Corymbose, Number of the flowers of 1 arrangement: 4, 5, 6, 7, Length of the peduncles: short 0.6 – 1.0cm. Length of the pedicels: middle size, 2.1- 2.5, 2.6-3.0, Thickness of the pedicels: middle, Hair of the pedicels: no, Fragrance: Fragrant, but weak Fruits: a few, Shape of the calyx: Bell shape, shape of the sepals: long egg shaped triangle, Presence of compound sepal: no, Tolerance to the damage caused by diseases and harmful insects: yes
    ※It isn't my fault to have some dontradict comments about peduncles.

    20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 124.jpg 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 125.jpg 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 126.jpg
    20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 025.jpg 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 026.jpg 20100414_TamaForestScienceCentre_Masayuki.Izaki 084.jpg

    Senriko ( Prunus lannesiana Wils.cv.Senriko )
    Well-known cherry located at the bank of Arakawa River from Edo period. An old book says “single white flowers, about 4.5cm in diameter”. The book also says “The name comes from the strong fragrant which smells thousands miles”, but it doesn’t smell so much. Petals are wide and winkled wavy. Large flowers, a few fruits.

    Tree heights: middle size, Color of new buds: light brown, Serration of the leaves: double serration, Shape of the tip of the serration: aristate, Colour of the back of grown-up leaves: pale green, Presence of the hair on the back of grown-up leaves: no, Presence of hair on the top of the grown-up leaves: no, Shape of the grown-up leaves: oval, long oval shape, Presence of the hair on leaf stocks: no, Blooming season: middle of April, Opening of the leaves at the blooming time: after blooming, Flower colour: pale pink, Flower bud colour: pale pink, Flower type: single., Number of the petals: 5, 6-10, Size of the flower: large (3.6-5.5cm) Shape of the petals: round shape with notches at the tip, Number of the pistil(s): 1, Phylloid change of the pistil(s): no, Length of the pistil and stamens: same, Hair of the style(s): no, Flower arrangement: Corymbose arrangement, Number of the flowers of 1 arrangement: 3,4,5,6, Length of the peduncles: long 2.1-2.5cm, Length of the pedicels: avarrage2.6-3.0cm long3.1-3.5cm, Thickness of the pedicels: thick, Hair of the pedicels: no, Fragrance: fragrant but week, Fruits: a few, Shape of the calyx: campanulate & cylindrical, Shape of the sepals: Long ovate triangular, Presence of accessory calyx : no, Tolerance to the damage caused by diseases and harmful insects: yes
    20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 057Senriko.jpg 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 060Senriko.jpg 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 064Senriko.jpg
    2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 014Senriko.jpg 2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 015SEnriko.jpg 2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 229Senriko.jpg

    Koke-shimizu( Prunus lannesiana Wils. cv. Kokeshimidsu )
    Leaf buds are brown; leaves are Broad elliptical and single, aristate serration. Flower buds are darker pink. Petals are Elliptical shape, narrow and long. There are small notches at the tip of the petals and colour of the edge is darker. Sepals are Lanceolate and have little serrations. Fruitful. Because of cherry treeborer, it is very difficult to grow Koke-shimizu in warm climate. It has some characters of Yama-zakura.
    Tree heights: middle size, Color of new buds: yellowish green, brown, Serration of the leaves: double, Shape of the tip of the serration: aristate, Back colour of the grown-up leaves: light green, Presence of the hair on the back of grown-up leaves: no, Presence of hair on the top of the grown-up leaves: no, Shape of the grown-up leaves: oblong, Presence of the hair on leaf stocks: no, Blooming season: mid-April, Opening of the leaves at the blooming time: After blooming, Flower colour: pale pink, Flower bud colour: pale pink, dark pink, Flower type: Single, Number of the petals: 5, Size of the flower: middle size (2.6-3.5cm) Shape of the petals: elliptical shape, notches at the tips, Number of the pistil(s): 1, Phylloid change of the pistil(s): no, Length of the pistil and stamens: same, Hair of the style(s): no, Flower arrangement: Corymbose, Number of the flowers to 1 arrangement: 2, 3, 4, Length of the peduncles: long 1.6-2.0cm, Length of the pedicels: short 1.6-2.0cm, thickness of the pedicels: middle, Hair of the pedicels: no. Fragrance: fragrant but week, Fruits: yes but a few, Shape of the calyx: long-campanulate shape, Shape of the sepals: Lanceolate, Presence of accessory calyx : no, Tolerance to the damage caused by diseases and harmful insects: no, weak
    20100414_TamaForestScienceCentre_Masayuki.Izaki 146Koke-shimizu.jpg

    Flowers of each seasons
    Frog-taro
    Halloween, Trip to Kyusyu
     
  15. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan but I still miss Vancouver
    From May 16 to May 18, I visited Hokkaido to see cherries. In the middle part of Hokkaido, Sargentti was finishing and Somei-yoshino was in full bloom. Then I visited Matsumae, the south most city, famous for cherries. There middle time cherries were blooming.
    I wasn't very lucky about weather. When I arrived there in the late afternoon, it was cloudy and dark and cold. I couldn't walk around so much. The last day it was cloudy in the morning but I took a lot of pictures. When it got to be better weather, I was short of the battery.
    Matsumae is a great place for cherry lovers. There are about 10000 cherries of about 250 cultivar names. And every tree has a name plate. If they can't identify the cherry they put number like A-152 or B-34.
    I searched cherry resemble to Nitobe one. I couldn’t find Koke-shimizu. When I saw Ariake there, I thought it was the Nitobe one. Ariake there had as large flowers as Senriko. Senriko has wide and curled-up petals like poppy, but it had flatter petals.

    2011.05.18_MatsumaePark1_Izaki 132.jpg 2011.05.18_MatsumaePark1_Izaki 138.jpg 2011.05.18_MatsumaePark1_Izaki 142.jpg
    2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 235.jpg 2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 238.jpg 2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 242.jpg

    But After I came back and saw the pictures of Nitobe one, I am not sure. The flowers might be too pink. At least one Ariake tree had pink flowers.

    The board there explain;
    Ariake: Wonderful garden variety famous from Edo Period. The first cherry reference book, Igansai-ōhin, (1758) has pictures of single and double flowers and it wrote “ Ariake-zakura have single, white, large flowers. It also have double flowers. The name came from Moon of Ariake (a pale morning moon).
    6m to 8m tree. Flower buds; pink, Full bloom; pale pink white. Large single flowers. Lots of flowers.

    But in Tama Forest Science Center, Ariake is very different. It is similar to Senriko.
    2011.04.27_TamaForestScienceCentre_Izaki 081.jpg 2011.04.27_TamaForestScienceCentre_Izaki 083.jpg 2011.04.27_TamaForestScienceCentre_Izaki 084.jpg
    2011.04.27_TamaForestScienceCentre_Izaki 086.jpg 2011.04.27_TamaForestScienceCentre_Izaki 089.jpg 2011.04.27_TamaForestScienceCentre_Izaki 087.jpg

    Gakken book shows the picture on page 134. It is similar to Forest Center one. Flowering cherries in Japan New Edition shows same kind pictures on page 171 with Senriko and Ojochin.
    In the site of Genetic Institute and Ishikawa Forest Center, Ariake is Tama Forest Center type, too.
    But Konohana-sakuya shows Matsumae type flowers.
    I'm a bit confused and also if it isn't Ariake, then I don't know what those trees in Matsumae are.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2017
  16. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    The Ishikawa page, showing one that to me looks very different, which is similar to the 'Senriko' photos, gives alternate names Omuroariake or Ariake Kanto. The Konohana page, showing one that is five petals and looks like our Nitobe tree, gives the name as Ariake (Kantou Ariake Ariake). Could that extra Ariake be to distinguish it from Omuroariake? Douglas, what would it mean that it gives the name Cerasus serrulata 'Candida' but when it gives Ariake (Kantou Ariake Ariake), it doesn't show any of that in single quotes?

    It's hard to see the stipules at the bottom of the leaf stems, but do they look sort-of like ours? My screen is way too small.

    I don't suppose if we think it fits, we could call ours 'Matsumae-ariake'?
    ---------------
    Mariko, on that frog-taro link in your earlier posting, can you see the cultivar names for the photos displayed?
     
  17. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan but I still miss Vancouver
    In Frog-Taro’s page, the first 2 pictures are Koke-shimizu. “苔清水”is the Chinese character for Koke-shimizu. Koke means moss and shimizu means spring water or clear water.

    The Gakken book has Ariake on page 134. It says:

    “有明” Ariake Cerasus lannesiana Candida ‘Miyoshi’
    Number of the Petals: 5-10
    Diameter of the Flowers: 3.8-4.8cm
    Garden Variety of Sato-zakura, cultivated at the bank of Arakawa River. Cultivar name came from a moon of Ariake (a pale morning moon) and we can see some record even from early days of Edo Period(1600-1868) . One cultivated now has spread from Arakawa River Bank of early Meiji period(1868-1912) and it is sometimes called as Kanto-ariake to compare to Omuro-ariake at Ninna Temple in Kyoto. Senriko is classified into the same cultivar. Petals are large round shape, pale pink and wrinkled like waves. Ariake has five normal shaped petals and sometimes have several additional petals. It has weak fragrance.

    The Picture: taken in Kyoto, Kyoto prefecture ( I think it was taken in Kyoto Botanical Garden which has 500 cherry trees of 70 kinds.)

    Gakken Book is written by Toshio Katsuki who is working at Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute in Tsukuba, Ibaraki Prefecture now and he classified the cherries in Shinjuku Gyoen Park.
    I think Forestry and Forest products Research Institute has some connection with Tama Forest Centre. (I think he might have been working at Tame before he move to Tsukuba.) Also Ishikawa Forest Experiment Station has some connection to Tama and Tsukuba. All 3 places have some botanists specialized in cherries.

    Konohana-sakuya uses the pictures taken in Osaka city for Ariake. It means Osaka Mint. There are 352 cherry trees of 128 kinds there. But there are no botanists and it opens to the public for only 1 week par a year.

    Mr. Fujiwara who runs the web named Konohana-sakuya is a Tree Doctor, who takes care of the sick trees and old trees(there’s a licence for Tree Doctor in Japan.) He also is a scholar of cherries but I think he isn’t a botanists.

    Cherries of Matsumae were collected by Matsumae Sakura society. They are collecting cherries all over Japan and they have good collections but there aren’t cherry specialists for classification. They are using the names which were called in the original places. They have some connections between Osaka Mint. They are exchanging some cherries each other.

    Unfortunately I couldn’t see Koke-shimizu in Matsumae but I saw Benizuru-zakura there. Before I visited there I checked the all the flower lists and at that time I thought Benizuru-zakura(紅鶴桜 right, 6th from the top) resembles to Nitobe tree the most. But when I saw the real flowers I understood they weren’t. Flowers were too small to be Nitobe cherries.

    2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 115.jpg 2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 116.jpg 2011.05.18_MatsumaePark2_Izaki 117.jpg

    In Japan there were press release about identifying cherries using DNA this spring. So cultivar names will be sort out in a few years.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2011
  18. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Mariko, I'm confused because I thought we thought the 'Kanto-ariake' was the Matsumae one, which was like our Nitobe one. But when it says "Senriko is classified into the same cultivar", I was thinking it was classified into the 'Omuro-ariake' one, but I'm interpreting the sentence to mean it's the same as the Kanto one.

    I seem to be misunderstanding something.
     
  19. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    No reason we should give up on identifying this tree just because the discussion has passed some seven-year expiry date. It was at peak bloom two days ago, April 15.
    I still think Mariko's photos of 'Ariake' from Matsumae look pretty convincing, including the lines along the length of the petals. I didn't get any response to the idea of calling it 'Matsumae-ariake'.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

    Messages:
    7,832
    Likes Received:
    586
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    I took these last weekend at Nitobe, have now figured out from the photo time and spent double blossoms that they're from this tree that is still going by the name 'Ojochin'. That would account for some of the leaves having very long attenuated tips and others having no tips at all.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page