odds of shin deshojo and katsura in zone 5??

Discussion in 'Maples' started by STi, Jun 15, 2006.

  1. STi

    STi Active Member

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    will they survive or?
     
  2. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    They are not rated for Zone 5, but can you grow them in pots and bring them into a garage or basement for the winters? I know people in Zone 5, who do this with their collection.
     
  3. STi

    STi Active Member

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    so putting them in the ground is a bad idea?
     
  4. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I have not been able to locate an arboretum, or botanical or private garden, in Connecticut with a sizable collection of Japanese maples. Perhaps you could contact Twombly Nursery in Monroe, CT since they sell a few cultivars, but not many, and no variegated cultivars, at least on their website. Variegated cultivars are typically not as vigorous as others, and certainly not as vigorous as the species. Ask if they have any experience growing Katsura in the ground in Zone 5. If you do not yet grow Japanese maples, we could give you our opinion or a few suggestions to start with, or perhaps we could assist you to find a variegated maple alternative to Shin deshojo, but from another species. We would not want to hear that you invested in these cultivars only to find they barely made it through the winter.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2006
  5. STi

    STi Active Member

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    well i had these 2 types of trees before and they died from over pruning i wanted to give them another shot and got a great deal on ebay..i can put them in garage but preffer them in the ground

    i'm also thinking of butterfly and garnet or another laceleaf
     
  6. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I had a feeling that you already had these cultivars; congratulations on getting a great price for the replacements. There is a Crimson Queen in the Connecticut College Arboretum in New London. I also read that Harkness Memorial State Park in Waterford has a collection of Japanese maples, but it is on the coast and likely Zone 6. There is a wealth of information in this forum on growing Japanese maple cultivars in pots. (Click on the Maples forum and notice the green Search this Forum tab.) I do not recall if anyone actually buries the pots in the ground, like fuchsia trees, then brings them in for the winter
     
  7. kaydye

    kaydye Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Sti,
    I have a gigantic garnet (at least 10 years old) and crimsom queen in zone 5 (peoria, il area) also three butterflies (first one 1995), a large beni shichihenge (1995), and a ukigumo(1998) that I feel comfortable about recommending for zone 5. My goal is to see how many I can grow in zone 5 (palmatums) and right now I have about ten I feel pretty comfortable with. Sorry, I haven't tried the ones you are wanting info on.
    Kay Dye
     
  8. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    That is wonderful to hear. Would you mind letting us know if you planted them out as one-gallons or five-gallons, or kept them in pots for a couple of years and brought them in for the winter? Did you take any precautions for winter, e.g. mounding up a bit? And are you in a protected spot with larger trees and have little wind?
    Ah, now I see that you had simultaneously commented on this a bit in the following thread: http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=15476.
     
  9. kaydye

    kaydye Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Sure...
    THe ones that were young TA from Forest Farms are a waterfall, a kashima, the ukiguma I mentioned, a triflorum I moved from a friend's house when she moved (it was really small). The ones I planted out last year that were small 1 year old maybe two from Byles are: koto no ito, shaina, pixie, and sister ghost. THe small ones that died were: orangeola and tsuri nishiki. Now I also have purchased some from a local nursery which has been carrying some the last few years and I usually get about a 3 gallon one depending on the price. The really successful ones have been: ever red, tamukeyama, virdis, green filigree, shishigashira, butterfly, osakazuki, oregon sunset, trompenburg, and I'm only talking about palmatums right now. Some of these have only come through one winter, last winter, but they didn't suffer any dieback and we had a terrible dry stretch last winter, so I was worried.

    ANyway, that's a start. Let me know if this helps.
    Kay
     
  10. STi

    STi Active Member

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    nice...i will buy 2

    garnet vs crimsom queen.. which looks better?

    butterfly vs ukigumo..which looks better?

    Thx!
     
  11. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    All four of those cultivars are beautiful. Butterfly is more widely available, and therefore may be more affordable. Check out Butterfly and Ukigumo in the Maple Photo Gallery. There are threads about Ukigumo in the Maples forum, where members give the impression that Ukigumo is far more challenging to grow and requires more shade. My vote is for Crimson Queen, which looks especially lovely backlighted by the late afternoon sun. It is reported to hold its color through the hottest summers, where Garnet apparently loses some of its color through the summer in certain climates as reported by some members in threads in the Maples forum and in the Gallery.
     
  12. STi

    STi Active Member

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    great! i will bid on those 2 on ebay
     
  13. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Esteemed Contributor UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Far better to buy cultivars from a reputable grower...
     
  14. STi

    STi Active Member

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    yes it is...but $80+ vs $12 ..if they die no biggie
     
  15. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    How do the maples you purchased on ebay look thus far? One of our forum members told me about worldplants.com, so compare with $15 for a #1, which I assume is a one-gallon. They are not a maple specialist nursery, but at least they have been in business awhile. Shipping may be a factor since they are in Oregon and you are in Connecticut. I will have to check out their booth at the Saturday market, when we are in Salem. Check out the Acer japonicum cultivars as they are hardier - rated for Zone 5, as are some of the Acer shirasawanum cultivars.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006
  16. STi

    STi Active Member

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    no idea...one comes from cal maples and the other dunno...should be here this week
     
  17. kaydye

    kaydye Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Dan,
    I have had to turn to ebay recently because my wonderful, numero uno grower (Frank Byles) has sold his business. I would never have purchased anywhere else. However, I have been pleased with the stock I've received from ebay, so far. The problem with living on the east side of the Mississippi is the shipping charge can be astronomical depending on how they figure it. We're probably not supposed to comment on growers here, so I'll stop there :)
    Kay Dye

    P.S.
    Sti,
    Laurie has a really good point. Acer japonicum and shirasawanum cultivars have some fantastic cultivars. A.s. autumn moom, full moon, xjohin...
     
  18. Jerry_Br

    Jerry_Br Member

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    Not trying to do a thread jack here, but I wondered what happened to Byles and his site. Is whoever bought his business still selling his trees? I know his website has been down for a long time.

    Thanks for any insight.
     
  19. STi

    STi Active Member

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    the katsura came today...looks good low and neat graft but it's in a smaller pot...it's too hot tto replant correct? i must wait till fall?
     
  20. kaydye

    kaydye Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Jerry,
    I talked to him on the phone. I called to see if he had a couple maples I was looking for and he told me the news. I was so upset. He has sold his business, but things are not going well with the sale and it is in court, I think he said. He did say not to count him out in the future, which made it sound like he may keep his "fingers in the pie", but he was not specific. He was the most generous, honest, friendly, helpful (I could go on...) person and I will really miss getting maples from him.
    Kay
     
  21. STi

    STi Active Member

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    1 gallon pot works for this little guy or do i need bigger?

    [​IMG]
     
  22. Daniel Otis

    Daniel Otis Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I've grown Katsura outside in zone 5 for perhaps 10 years, and it is flourishing, probably 15 feet tall and wide. Unlike some of my other cultivars, it doesn't even get tip damage over the winter. Temperatures here get close to -20 F nearly every year here. I should perhaps mention that my tree gets very little direct sun in winter, and that it's not in a very windy position.

    Although I agree with others that spring is the ideal planting season, I personally would be inclined to plant it now--IF you are sure you can keep an eye on it and ensure that it doesn't ever dry out. I routinely plant trees throughout the summer--I just include them in my daily round of watering, and I'm careful to avoid damaging the roots when I plant them. But then, I'm in a pretty sheltered location--if my trees were blasted by sun and wind it would be a riskier proposition.
     
  23. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Just to note, STi sent a private message so I answered via that format and didn't drop the ball here. A one-gallon would work unless the plant received is root bound, and the roots can be gently disentangled to fit into a two-gallon. Dan, besides Kay's recommendations, are there other cultivars that you can generally recommend for planting out in Zone 5? We frequently see that question here. Also, do you water both your potted and planted maples everyday?
     
  24. graftedmaplecollector

    graftedmaplecollector Active Member 10 Years

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    Ebay.....pfft.
     
  25. Daniel Otis

    Daniel Otis Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Here are some others that I've grown outside in Zone 5 for 10 years or so without problems from cold: Asahi Zuru, Ao Kanzashi, Beni Otaki, Butterfly, Eagle's Claw, Higasayama, Kamagata, Katsura, Mary Katherine, Mikawa Yatsubusa, Murasaki Kiyohime, O Kagami, Omato, Orido Nishiki, Saoshika (my favorite palmatum of them all), Shishigashira, Waterfall, and Ukigumo.

    I find that seedlings do pretty well, too, except for extremely weird ones. I also think that Acer japonicum and its cultivars are strong trees, too, as far as degrees-below-zero is concerned. In winter sun and wind, though, I don't know.

    A few palmatums of doubtful hardiness: Beni Kawa, Sango kaku. They hang on, but are often killed back part way. My Seiryu gets some tip dieback every year. I think the timing of fall cold is the culprit--our first frosts are 2 to 4 weeks before those in Japan. Seiryu often looks good, but it will never be as great a specimen tree as it could be in, say, Zone 7.

    Two that are NOT hardy, in my exp.: Hanami Nishiki, Kotohime. Not even close. Too bad.

    This is a sheltered Zone 5, probably a 5b, even a 6 some years--no blasting winter winds, no harsh sun. But the temps get to 15-20 F below zero for at least a few nights every winter, and stretches of days that don't get much above zero also occur. But these temps only occur in deep winter, January or the first half of February, when the trees are fully dormant. We rarely get early or late frosts, and generally have some snow cover.

    I have about a hundred palmatums in pots, which is an endless pain and pleasure. From April until October I water them about every day. Plants in the ground I rarely water, once they are established.

    Sorry to run on at such length.
     

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