Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Maples' started by willi2, Aug 1, 2020.
I’ve attached some pictures. Don’t know what else to say about this tree.
Yes it’s a species of Acer
My guess is acer negundo or boxelder.
That was my initial thought but negundo has 5 leaflets. This has 3
My dendrology references say negundo has 3 to 5 leaflets.
I have an a. griseum which has 3 leaflet compound leaves similar to what you've pictured, but it has the famous peeling paper bark (that gives it the common name 'paperbark maple') that is very unlike what you'be pictured.
I do believe these are the only compound leaf maples. Maple Society members actively participating in this forum and who would know for certain are in Europe. I look forward to tomorrow's postings.
There you go.
We also see Acer cissifolium around here, which leaves have three leaflets. We don't have a photo of the whole tree being asked about - maybe @willi2 could reply with one.
Acer cissifolium, Vine-Leaf Maple (not the same as Vine Maple), is supposed to have wide-spreading branches, distinguishing it from the more upright Acer negundo, though I've seen both and don't really get the difference.
Willi2, while you're getting us a photo of the whole tree, could you check the leaves to see if 5-leaflet ones are also present?
Acer negundo looks pretty good to me.
The other maples in Section Trifoliata Series Grisea (de Jong 2002) are Acer maximowiczianum (Nikko maple) and Acer triflorum (Shaggy Barked maple) along with Acer griseum (Paperbark maple).
A. negundo is a good guess, but this is most probably the Nikko maple, which has very hirsute petioles as seen in the first picture. A. negundo is sometimes pilose on the petioles, esp. in some of the subspecies like ssp californicum, but much downier.
The samara is old but there's a little info there. The Nikko maples will have larger and thicker, woody nutlets, which seems to be what we see in the photo. In A. negundo the smaller samaras are held in drooping racemes, whereas on A. maximowiczianum, they are held on drooping peduncles, usually in groups of 3-5, if you saw them on the tree.
Except for the trunk what it looks like is Acer griseum - it might be instructive to see the branches and also the leaf undersides. And since it is growing in western cultivation it might be a hybrid seedling that arose where paperbark maple was growing near a related species.
Thank you everyone...so much. I feel like I’ve died and gone to heaven, landing in a group of people who are educated and care about trees. I’m just an old bird in White Rock, BC that cannot stand to see the mutilation of plants by ‘landscapers’, heading everything in sight back to a square or a globe with with a need for expediency, but little understanding of the little flutter that comes from viewing a beautifully pruned shrub or tree. In this regard, I have chased down the landscape drawings from our complex and am trying to educate myself on the various trees so as to ensure proper care and any further ‘pruning’ without knowledge.
The ‘plan’ does show this as a Griseum, but there appears to be some other discrepancies on various trees so I don’t feel I can rely on it. There are quite a few Paperbark maples on the property which are readily identifiable.
I shall endeavour to get more pictures..and...a ladder.
Looks like Acer triflorum to me - similar to A. griseum, but without the papery bark.
But leaves and fruits are like A. griseum.
Acer sect. Trifoliata in Flora of China @ efloras.org
I also think it's Acer trifolium. Have a look at the pictures on the Wespelaar Arboretum website, it might help you come closer to an ID :
I'm not sure about this confusion. Sure it's one of these 3 maples. It could possibly be a griseum hybrid, or a really bad triflorum. From leaves pictured on the internet it's a little difficult to distinguish between the 3.
Or it could be A. maximowiczianum, which when mature has bark like this. Is the confusion because you expect the twigs and petioles to be much more hirsute? I have seen Nikko maple that weren't very hairy later in the season. The bark is smooth when young, but becomes fissured and gray in older specimens.
Using Occam's Razor, the likeliest seems like Acer maximowiczianum. I'm not married to that solution, but it does seem the simplest; though finding out the tree is labeled griseum is a pretty strong hint in another direction! (Note, A. nikkoense still in FOC, but the latest work from the Maple Society species group, which includes UBC's Doug Justice, has settled on A. maximowiczianum).
That's exactly what I was saying! Leaves and fruit like A. griseum, but bark not.
Doesn't look right for Acer maximowiczianum to me - that has broader leaflets, less serrated/lobulated, and above all, is furry on the petioles; this plant, like A. triflorum, is only thinly hairy.
Yes, I agree that's broadly true, no pun intended. But there is variation. Since I've been wanting to test uploading phone pictures on a new OS, I went out and snapped these 3 species, which are planted together in the hope we may eventually get a hybrid. It's a monumentally awful year for maples, so several grains of salt are necessary, but my point is how, at this time of year, A. maximowiczianum is not very furry, griseum and triflorum are actually more hirsute (not suggesting this is the norm at all). The griseum is from wild collected seed, maximowiczianum is a rooted cutting, and not yet established.
Young A. maximowiczianum
Young A. griseum
@willi2 good afternoon, can I throw another suggestion in the pot. I see that the tree in question has been planted in the gardens of what appears to be a residential apartment block.
One of my children bought an apartment and he was given a list and plan by tbe residents association of every tree and shrub that they had agreed to plant over the years, together with the name of the landscape gardeners who carried out the work. Not one was a hybrid btw.
The point I am trying to make is, ask the residents or apartment management committee for a copy of the plan.
There are a lot of experts on this forum, but there is not a 100% agreement on the naming of your tree 'as yet', hence my suggestion.
I am sure though the debate will continue.
Good morning As mentioned earlier in the thread, I was able to finally get my hands on the landscape plan; the firm that did the drawings no longer exists. My concern was that it appeared that some of the other trees actually planted did not appear to be what we’re shown on the plan. This was my first attempt to try to identify just one of the trees. I feel badly that I am taking up so much of the contributors time with the nuance which, honestly, although fascinating, is somewhat above my pay grade and needs. I really was just trying to confirm that it was a maple at all.
Please, someone speak directly if I’ve landed in the wrong pond, as I have others which I would like to post but don’t want to waste anyone’s time.
@willi2, you are wasting nobody's time at all. Everybody on this forum enjoys the challenges put before us. If you have others then please do post them. And to be honest I really enjoy watching the debates about something I love. Retirement does that to you, lol