Magnolia soulangiana 'Lilliputian'

Discussion in 'Photography and Art' started by mr.shep, Mar 13, 2005.

  1. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Photos taken 02/21/05 in the misses yard.

    The history of this one is in doubt. I learned this
    Magnolia to be Mr. Toichi Domoto's plant and he
    did not deny it. Affectionately called Lilliput by
    those of us that have owned this Magnolia.
     

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  2. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Identification suspect. The purple flush should be mostly near the base, the flowers and plant more petite. Introduced in Alabama, 1946 or earlier.
     
  3. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    This one has its heritage right back to Toichi. From Toichi to
    Don Kleim to me. The only reason I mentioned the history
    may be in doubt was because of what is written in the Magnolia
    Society about this Magnolia. I believe them to be wrong about
    this one and I am not alone in feeling that way. If Don Kleim
    ever said the plant was developed by someone, it was!

    Jim
     
  4. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Introduced by Semmes nurseries. Said by them to be "similar in every way" to 'Late Soulangeana', which was thought to have come from England.
     
  5. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    You are thinking a completely different form, the form
    that looks like a mini standard soulangiana that will fade
    to white with pink in the base and with a pink stripe. I've
    grown it also. Now, tell me the name of it as it was in
    the nursery trade? I showed you what the true form of
    Lilliputian looks like. This is where book knowledge
    clashes with acquired knowledge and the books and one
    Society are wrong on this one. Roger Gossler's father
    did have this Magnolia years ago in their sale catalog
    and I know who he got it from.

    Jim
     
  6. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The clone you are showing is the one introduced by Semmes?
     
  7. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Ron:

    It is going to be unfair for anyone to come back
    at me too much on the Magnolia topic. There are
    people still around that know me and my association
    with Mr. Don Kleim. There were two Jim's that ran
    around with Don through the years, a Jim R., who is
    a known Conifer and native shrub expert whom
    specializes in landscape design and Jim S., the "state"
    guy as referred to by Don to others (California and
    Oregon). I am the Jim S.

    There are a few well known arboretums and renown
    gardens that got many to almost all of their Magnolias
    from Don starting back in the late 40's. If you do not
    mind the travel you can see this Magnolia and read the
    nameplate at Strybing. It has been there a long while.

    No, Lilliputian was indeed Toichi Domoto's Magnolia.
    The parent plant still resides in Hayward, California.

    You have picked up on how weather can influence
    the coloring of our Magnolias here. With good
    rain years, above normal rainfall, we do see better
    than average color in some of our Magnolias than
    in other years. Typical years means it rains here when
    the Magnolias are in bloom. This year the rains came
    before most of the Mags bloomed. Also, with overcast
    conditions we get to see the Magnolias develop better
    than usual. By that it means the colors will start out
    normal but they will hold their intermediate color much
    better and it is the intermediate coloring that you see
    from my pics that has you slightly confused with
    Iolanthe and this one. Normally, they will fade to
    a lighter shade of pink than what are shown in my
    crude digital photos of them.

    The Semmes form differs in the amount of pink in the
    base and the shade of pink as the one is more of a light
    pink whereas the other is more of a purple-pink (Lilliputian).
    The Semmes form in most years will start out a light pink
    on the backside of the tepal and fade to an off white with
    a noticeable light shaded rose-pink stripe in the middle
    of the backside of the tepal. Lilliputian can also fade to
    a lighter color but if there is a stripe it is always a purplish
    rose color, much darker stripe than the Semmes form.
    Lilliputian always has a richer pink flush in the base than
    the Semmes form. The flowers in size are similar but
    Lilliputian's are a little larger, longer tepals and when
    the flower opens up Lilliputian's flowers will hold
    much longer as when the Semmes form flowers
    start to open up the tepals will be sloughed off soon
    here. The Semmes form never sets as many buds as
    Lilliputian will. One is a moderate to slight "bloomer"
    (bud setter) and the other is without question a profuse
    bloomer year in and year out.

    I know that only handful of people have ever seen
    this Magnolia as it was held out of people's hands
    here in the US for almost 30 years. The guys in
    Mississippi and the rest of the South never saw
    this Magnolia until they came out here and then
    it was off limits to them. Sir Harold Hillier in
    England did have this Magnolia in his collection.
    Only very and I do mean very select people ever
    had access to Lilliputian until Don started to offer
    it to what he felt were upstanding wholesale
    nurseries back in 1984, back in the late 50's in
    Japan. The only retail nurseries that I know of
    that were allowed to have this plant was Orchard
    Nursery in Lafayette and Berkeley Horticultural
    Nursery. Saratoga Horticultural Foundation got
    their original plant from Toichi.

    Jim
     
  8. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    But Jim: Semmes introduced their 'Lilliputian' before/during 1946.
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Ron, you are mising something here with the translation.
    Toichi's Lilliputian was around before the Semmes form
    was. The Semmes form came afterwards and then notice
    where the Magnolia Society is referencing the nursery
    that carried it. It is no different than a Maple book author
    stating that a Maple name can be traced to a nursery catalog
    in Japan that carried it but the name of the actual source of
    the Maple is conspicuously absent. Find the name of the
    Semmes plant in the nursery trade and the puzzle will all fall
    into place for you. You are "playing" with me now and now
    you will have to earn the right to know what that name is
    from me. I've seen it, you haven't. I've grown it and you
    haven't. Now we play the game Don Kleim style. Good
    luck with the Magnolia Society with that one but there are
    a couple of people in the Society that know that Magnolia
    but will they risk bucking the system in order to tell you?

    Jim
     
  10. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Jim, I'm just trying to find out what the facts are.
     
  11. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Jim, I'm just trying to find out what the facts are. If the reported history of 'Lilliputian' is in error, I want to know how.
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Ron, I know and I was a little out of line but there
    are issues between here and elsewhere that have
    led to some hard feelings in the past over who
    developed what and when. The plant purists out
    here did much of the work and others elsewhere
    took credit for it or the ripped off wood from
    private gardens, recognized gardens and from
    Arborteums and then named the plant which really
    sent some people into orbit here. Saratoga Hort
    knows all about it as they had similar things happen
    to them also. Even today the plant sources have not
    been properly cited, named or accounted for. Off
    limits meant that no one in a respective area got
    their hands on a particular plant. Call it a plant
    "fatwa" if you will. It was amazing the extent of
    which, if a plant was not to go to someone or
    somewhere, it did not for several years.

    Jim
     

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