1. What is the typical size of this tree? Its height is 8-15m according to the grower. 2. What is the fragrance of its flower?
Mature heights of trees often range widely, especially if they have been grown from seed. And not much information will be available about local performance of a rare one like this. http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Tree heights.pdf
Hi, Ron. You're right about the factors influencing tree size. I'm sure I wouldn't recognize many of my houseplants in their native habitats. I thought Saxy Fraga, who had mentioned this tree in another thread, could provide a rough idea of its size in Mission (which is close to Vancouver where I am). My tree is growing nicely on my balcony but is about to hit the ceiling. I may need to find a home for it outside unless I cut it back the same way I did with my M. maudiae which incidentally has grown a new leader. For that matter I may need to let go of them both to make room for my citrus collection. I'm hoping they'll produce some flowers next spring before that happens.
Junglekeeper, what are your size constraints for this Michelia? How tall can you let it get before you have to cut it back? What is your zone in Western Garden Book outdoor terms? How long have you had this tree and about how old is it? Jim
Thing is, these are probably seedlings. Even vegetatively propagated clones vary. So, you will never be able to get an exact prediction - it just isn't possible. Many tree species routinely give dwarves, giants and ones in between from seed. If it looks like it has too much vigor for your requirements now, it will probably continue to do so for quite awhile.
Hey, Ron and Jim. The chapensis was 46" when purchased in February and is now 80" - about 10" inches from the ceiling. The maudiae was 41" after pruning and is now 53". And of course they're also getting wider all the time. (Now you see why I'm Junglekeeper.) I think the current year is the 2nd for chapensis and the 3rd for maudiae. They were both 1-gal specimens at the time of purchase. They're supposed to be okay for z8/Vancouver but I think they'll need a somewhat protected location. I know I'll have to find a new home for them; it's just a matter of when. They are just too robust to be grown indoors. Besides, like I said, I need room for my citrus. I'd like to be able to give the new owner an idea of what to expect in terms of size and fragrance.
Junglekeeper, you have kind of put me in a bind if you have designs of later giving away this tree. I'll stay quiet after this post because of it. We had this tree in the nursery but it was in Don Kleim's collection. Ron, what zone would he be for a Western Garden Book designation as the zone 8 does not seem right to me. If it is a zone 8 there is no major drawback growing this Michelia outdoors and the height factor was not a problem for us. Don's started to grow much wider than tall once it got up to about 10' tall. Pretty much how my Wilsonii has grown for me here as well. Grew tall fast and then started to branch out, widen and fill in and then the top growth really slows down after that. I agree that this tree probably came from seed. Don's old plant was propagated from a cutting as was my Wilsonii. Jim
Where was Don? Of course, that may not be central to the point. These newish evergreen magnolias have not been widely grown up here until recently, long term experience is mostly absent. Trees have to be grown for decades before enough is known to start calling them hardy. Even then, if one grows for 30 or 40 years and then freezes to the ground, is it apt to call it hardy here? I think a plant has to be reliable more or less indefinitely to be so dubbed, otherwise the term becomes meaningless. 'Semi-hardy' or 'almost hardy' are already in use for plants that aren't completely reliable. Last edition of Sunset Western Garden Book should not have zoned the evergreen magnolias (michelias) for the PNW that they did, as far as I know no local long-term trial has been conducted on these. The Hogan-Sanderson plantings that have been claimed as proof of hardiness in Portland are not very old at all. An M. compressa at the Seattle arboretum apparently froze out after growing there for decades - although I do not know for sure now that it was killed by cold and not by honey fungus or another pathogen. My recollection is simply that it failed and was removed after a hard winter (probably 1990).
Hi Ron: I hear you and know what you are saying. I agree with your assessments on cold hardy and even cold tolerant designations. That is why I did not write a word in that one Citrus thread I started as I knew you were correct in your line of thought. You already know we have no real validation that many of these plants can survive long term cold temperatures. We can get lucky for a few years and not see any ill effects and then wham, one Winter the tree dies out on us. Then we may say to ourselves it was colder last year and the year before or it was much colder 10 years ago, what happened this year? I have the belief that the cold in conjunction with something else such as a disease and in many cases over fertilization causes the trees eventual demise more so than intense cold by itself but with some plants we are not sure of what caused the plant to perish but most people tend to blame it solely on the cold. In a nutshell some people writing books and contributors of composite books did not want Don's opinion until they wanted information about a plant and had no where else to turn to find out much. Even then Don would not tell them anything unless he wanted to as he already knew he was their last choice for them to come to. There are many people's names associated with Michelias and Magnolias on the West Coast that got their start in those plants from Don or attained much of their specialty stock from Don. He was into Magnolias long before he was going allover Japan to find Maples and Conifers to have sent to him later. As a side note: certain Japanese, in the 30's and earlier, had contacts in China and Korea and if some of them wanted a plant they knew who to get one from but they kept mum about such things for a long time unless a person was invited in to learn this stuff from the inside. People did not get in from the outside unless they were invited in. Jim
Slow-loading page from China with enlargeable habit photo of M. chapensis http://www.szbg.org/www/plant science/mulan/HXs.htm
This is an interesting discussion for me. I agree, in my opinion some books and growers are being too optimistic about how hardy some plants are in this area. A lot of star jasmines, and others, are being planted because of that and because of people's short memories. I remember some cold winters well. I try and warn them but it makes little difference. I only hope they remember enough not to come back and blame me when it dies. Or maybe global warming is really going to change our climate for good but all the scientists say it is too early to say. I also agree that, in general, we do not have good conditions for hardening of plants. I have been more aware of the dangers of over fertilizing because of reading discussions on this forum.
