List of Accepted Names in the Genus Acer

Discussion in 'Maples' started by AlainK, Sep 11, 2020.

  1. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    I just got the pdf version of the Maple Society Autumn/Fall newsletter, I thought I would post my comment here rather than in the MS members section :

    From what I've read, there are now 2 different species instead of 1 species, "Acer palmatum" + 3 different sub-species, or varieties (palmatum palmatum, palmatum amoenum, and palmatum matsumurae)

    1/ Acer amoenum (Carriere) Hara (1954)
    -- Acer amoenum var. amoenum -
    -- Acer amoenum var. matsumurae Koidzumi (1911)
    -- Acer amoenum var. nambuanum (Koidzumi) K. Ogata (1965)

    2/ Acer palmatum Thunberg ex Murray (1784)
    - (no var or ssp)

    That's a revolution ! Shall we update all the threads or messages in which we referred to the previous nomenclature ? ;0)

    Like the switch from the imperial measures to the decimal system in 1974 (?) for the British, or the change from the Franc, Mark, Gulden, to the €uro, how many of us will have some difficulty to adjust ?

    You know, I really feel disoriented, as if 2 thirds of my cousins, or even my sisters suddenly would bear a different name because of DNA testings. A bit disturbing.

    How many of the thousands of photos that I have labelled "Acerp-something_yr.month.day should I change now ?

    Oh.....

    And I've just ordered the last available Purple Ghost' from Maillot. It's listed as Acer palmatum". But is it really ? ... ^_^

    "For the names, they are a-changing" ;0)
     
  2. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    @AlainK Just been reading my hard copy, a lot to take in and I think it will be with me a long time for reference, Lol. Some, if not many will have problems and some will just turn off. Sadly I think it could be the latter !!!
    A Purple ghost, you succomed!!!! But what a maple it is.

    And yes Bob Dylan said it then and how right he was!!!
     
  3. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    Another way of seeing things : I remember when I was in my early twenties and we would share books with friends. I read "Siddharta" by Herman Hesse (a very popular book in the days of hippies). Something struck me as an evidence, the passage when the Buddha is contemplating a river. Always changing and the same.

    The problem is that when the river runs dry, what philosophical lesson can you take from that ?...

    OK, back to maples : the sun's going down, I might go into the garage where it's cooler and finally sever that air-layer...
     
  4. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    I don't suppose there is some simple description that I could use to distinguish them? On a couple of photos I posted, there was a comment that they were A. amoenum; I really don't know how to generalize from that to being able to recognize another one.
     
  5. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    What's in a name ?

    Ican understand that for "plain" species, the nomenclature can be adjusted. But there are hundreds of "Acer palmatum" cultivars : I'm certain that most of them can't be listed in any of the 3+1 new categories.

    So I think that for cvs, the general term "Acer palmatum" should stay : it's a generic term that describes the shapes of the leaves.

    And I'd really like to know what makes "Acer amoenum var. nambuanum (Koidzumi) K. Ogata (1965)" from the others.

    A detailed description ?

    Any pictures ?

    Actually, it's the first time I've ever heard of "Acer amoenum var. nambuanum". I'd like to know more...
     
  6. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    And Synonyms are next. A massive job !!! . As long as we all sing from the same hym sheet, after a little while it will be second nature to us all. But mistakes will be made, so long as people are not too critical of others when they inevitably do make a mistake.
     
  7. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    I used to refer to links such as :

    Species discernment of Japanese maples

    This is a website from Japan : it doesn't mean the Japanese "know" a definite truth about dendrology, and nomenclature, but they know and name the trees that grow in their mountains.

    The gap between "science" and "knowledge" ? Linguistic, cultural or "philosopical" differences ?

    What's in a name ?...
     
  8. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Hmm. So Acer amoenum has five or seven lobes, sometimes with sinuses only half-way in (most distinct) but other times almost full-depth sinuses, with margins serrated only toward the tips.
    In the drawing in the section I quoted, of the three at the bottom, the A. palmatum and the A. amoenum look pretty much the same to me. And I don't think leaves are that well-behaved that they keep to the drawing shapes.
     
  9. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Does it include the full Acer species list? Any chance someone could send me a copy, please?
     
  10. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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  11. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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  12. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Well-Known Member

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    It is a subspecies of a. tartaricum now.
     
  13. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Yes saw that, wonder why !!!!?
     
  14. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    A quite ridiculous lumping - the two are separated by over 3,000 km, and are readily distinguishable. High time they were split as separate species again.
     
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  15. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Here's a map of the distributions of Acer tataricum and Acer ginnala - note the gap between them!
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I've only just posted the list on the web site. Not even had a chance to do the official pub yet! The page was only promoted to the front page of the site this afternoon.

    There is a lot of information, beyond the (in my view rather obvious) split between palmatum and amoenum. We have adopted the concept of simply writing e.g. Acer 'Osakazuki', expressly to avoid the issue of IDing cultivars, which is often impossible anyway.

    WRT tataricum v. ginalla, I guess the genetic similarities were too close for the authors to ignore. But I haven't discussed it with anyone to know for sure.

    -E
     
  17. opusoculi

    opusoculi Active Member

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    Hi ! My dear, i agree with you.

    « Though classification by DNA is recently in progress little by little, i think it is important to classify maples by cultivating and observing them ».
    Book for Maples . Masyoshi Yano somme years ago, p 77.

    What means e.g and IDing ?
    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  18. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    E.g. is short for the Latin exempli gratia, used a lot in English, meaning "for example".
    IDing is ID-ing, short for "identifying" (IDentifying).
     
  19. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    That sounds very sensible.

    I'm also glad that "Acer campbellii var. sinense" is now listed as "Acer sinense" : much shorter to write on tags ;°)
     
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