Identification: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late sea

[Edited by wcutler May 11, 2008]: I'm leaving in all my anguished questions, but we can answer this now: the trees in this first posting are all Kanzans, and wherever there are rows of these showy pink trees lining one or both sides of whole blocks, they're Kanzans, in Vancouver anyway. See my posting this year of three tree shapes, asking if they all can be Kanzan, and see Douglas Justice's reply about a week later that yes, Kanzans do take all those shapes, depending on conditions and pruning. This thread has some good examples of Pink Perfection blossoms. Pink Perfections are very rare in Vancouver, and when the trees are starting to blossom, the peachy colour makes them very obvious - or as Douglas says "a piece of cake". I didn't believe that last year; now I do.


If we don’t get help with this, I’m threatening to post the 100 photos I’ve taken so far of (is it) Pink Perfection or Kanzan (just KIDDING, Daniel). I even know some things:
- Kanzan (and Akebono) are the most planted trees in Vancouver
- Kanzan have a more vase shape, Pink Perfection are more open and drooping
- Pink Perfection blossoms are lighter in colour than Kanzan
- Pink Perfection are less vigorous looking than Kanzan
- Pink Perfection have a white dot in the centre.
- Pink Perfection have two-toned blossoms.
All the above helped us not one bit, unless every frilly pink thing in Vancouver’s West End is Pink Perfection, but that’s not supposed to be the case. Some questions we had:
Is it the dot that’s important, or the colour of the dot? All the trees we saw April 10 had a yellow dot. What centre do Kanzan have or is it that you can't see the centre? Even on older blossoms? Is it that a petal that will be two-toned, or in the blossom as a whole? Everything we saw had colour variations in the blossoms.

I’m looking an answer for each set of tree photos. [Edited Feb 24: I can get the photos next to the text now.] They're all shown tree followed by its blossoms.
1 & 2 shape fits my understanding of Pink Perfection.

3 & 4 shape fits my understanding of Kanzan.

5 & 6 seems like a hefty Kanzan frame with droopy Pink Perfection branches.

7 & 8 seems like delicate Pink Perfection frame with upright Kanzan branches.

9 & 10: this tree is on Pendrell at Thurlow in Vancouver and is a very fine looking tree. It’s so much fuller than the other frilly pink trees, and bloomed about two weeks earlier, so I wonder if it’s not one of the two in question at all (like maybe Hodulai?), or is it just that it’s such an old healthy tree?


All my new scout friends and I thank you.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

I have to admit that I'm at least as confused as most people when it comes to separating these two cultivars. I think the problem is primarily that the conditions under which we find these trees growing is less than ideal. 'Kanzan' is reputed to be the more upright and vigorous of the two, but does not distinguish itself particularly well under droughty, streetside conditions. 'Pink Perfection' is often described as disorderly and I can vouch for that, but a little shade and 'Kanzan' can look pretty tatty, too. As for colour, we seldom get to see the two cultivars side-by-side so that we might compare them. Finally, I think there's plenty of confusion in the trade. I can guarantee that plants come labeled one cultivar when they are the other. In my nursery days, I remember having to guess un-labeled cherry cultivars out-of-flower.

According to Collingwood (Cherry) Ingram, the differences are this: "the flowers are slightly paler and its young foliage is not such a rich coppery tone" as 'Kanzan'.

Geoffrey Chadbund states the flowers are "bright rosy-pink, less blue than 'Kanzan', and are carried on long drooping stalks. He then goes on to say the flowers "show two distinct shades of pink, dark and light together." The emerging leaves he describes as "bronze." It is worth noting that he also says that 'Pink Perfection' closely resembles the old cultivar 'Daikoku' which has foliage that opens green ("slightly bronze, but not bronze green as 'Pink Perfection', according to Kuitert).

Kuitert says pedicels may be as long as 5.5 cm in 'Pink Perfection', but only to 4.5 cm in 'Kanzan'. Finally, the sepals are (according to Kuitert) always serrated in 'Pink Perfection', but seldom have more than an ocassional tooth in 'Kanzan'. Both 'Kanzan' and 'Daikoku' often have a an extra calyx lobe (i.e., 6 sepals) and those of 'Daikoku' are unserrated. If true, this should be the easiest diagnostic test, but Kuitert suggests examining the sepals for serrations only at the bud stage (?!).

 

By serrated sepals, you mean teeny little teeth along the edges of the stars on the back of the flowers, right? I don't see any serrations on any of the sepals on my photos, so they're all Kanzans? Or are we talking magnifying glass-visible serrations? They do all seem more bluish than what I mean by rosy, but they also seem to mostly have pale leaves, though I thought the leaves seemed darker before the flowers opened.

 

Ron B quoted Jacobson on another thread, saying "if their only difference from [the one tree] is one requiring close examination, it seems pointless to give them a separate name"! Well, really. If you have to pull down their genes to figure it out, and no-one will go out on a limb to hazard a guess, can't we decide they'll all be Kanzan, since the books already say it's one of the most planted Vancouver trees?

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

'Kanzan' and 'Pink Perfection' are conspicuously different, actually. This is 'Kanzan'. 'Pink Perfection' is not nearly as vigorous, dark and erect. The flower is much more softly and prettily tinted. It is easy to see why it was named what it was. We have very few of them down here, but when encountered it is quickly and easily recognized.

 

Ron, these are five trees, not so helpfully arranged on my screen [Feb 24: they're helpfully arranged now - wcutler], but it's tree then blossom for each. Are you saying all five are Kanzan?

Douglas, I did find two trees of different colour today, but one is very young, or is it thin and pale, so maybe that has something to do with it. It doesn't seem reasonable for the city to plant a different tree from the others when both are still available. The first photo (better photo than originally posted) shows them both, and the second is the blossoms from the paler one.

 

Of those two cultivars, the first set would all be 'Kanzan'. The paler, fringed one in your last post might be 'Pink Perfection', it has the right habit and the flowers have the creamy look to the petals of that one.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

Now we're getting somewhere. Unfortunately, there is a cultivar around with practically identical flowers that I think might be 'Daikoku'. My reasoning is that this has a more upright crown, the sepals are not serrated and the emerging leaves are a light bronze-green. What do you think? Update (23 April): this is 'Pink Perfection'. The fine branching and vexillate filaments (flag-like extensions above the anthers) are a giveaway. Sure. Piece of cake. Says he who's been trying to figure this out for a couple of decades. See also images below.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

It does seem to fit the profile, to a large extent. It even has red buds. I haven't seen it myself, if we have it down here now there are so few Jacobson (2006) doesn't even list it for Seattle. It would have either been overlooked by him, or not seen outside the Seattle arboretum.

With so many 'Kanzan' here generally similar cultivars may have not been recognized among the variations of that cultivar. I know I have stared at different-looking ones many times and wondered it they were actually different cultivars, without taking it anywhere.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

I have this sneaking feeling that there are two (or more) forms of 'Kanzan' planted locally--one vigorously upright, and another with more "disorganized" branching.

So next, I'm going to visit the BCLPIA cherry cultivar orchard here on campus to look at what's labeled 'Pink Perfection' 'Kanzan', etc. Perhaps when it stops raining.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

Grafted plants in other groups, such as conifers exhibit cultivariance, of course, so it seems the same thing could apply here. Another possible factor, influence of rootstocks is already established as affecting cherry scions, although there has been a problem with sweet cherry not being dwarfed as readily as say, apple trees. This may suggest these are less affected by rootstocks than usual, with perhaps at least some Japanese cherries sharing this characteristic.

Another badly overplanted rose family tree, the purpleleaf plum also shows variations within same cultivars in this area. As with 'Kanzan', there is plenty of material to look at, and I have often thought a tree or planting was something different until looking at it long enough to realize it was just another [insert common cultivar here].

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

I did finally venture out into the BCLPIA orchard yesterday (in the pouring rain), but the 'Kanzan' and 'Pink Perfection' are all still sitting with unopened buds. UBC is cooler than most of the rest of the Lower Mainland, which accounts for some of the lateness, but I think they're also held back slightly by virtue of the understocks on which they are grafted. The understock is the hybrid cherry cultivar 'Colt' (Prunus pseudocerasus x P. avium), which produces dwarfed trees, and to some degree probably holds them back developmentally.

The variation on the street could be related to grafting stock, as you say. Depending on the age of the individual, the understock could be one of several mazzard clones, and each one probably confers a certain level of vigour on the scion. Further, the quality of the graft, the placement (low or high), the quality of the scion and the virus susceptibility of both stock and scion surely has an impact on the ultimate form and behaviour of the tree. There's no doubt that plants that are infected with bacterial canker in the nursery that are subsequently planted out are going to behave very differently than clean stock.

 

Kuitert says "Several strains of 'Kanzan' exist" and also that "The cultivar 'Kirin' is often confused with 'Kanzan' because of Miyoshi's (1916) incomplete comparison of the two." However, K. also goes on to state that 'Kirin' is "rarely found."

In his Classification Key K. splits three of them out like this:

46. Two phylloid pistils per flower, rarely three, never four (open at least 10 flowers to check this)....'Kanzan'

Four phylloid pistils in some flowers (open at least 10 flowers to check this)....47

47. Stamen filament extends above the anther; sepals serrated (check the flower buds in their prime); thin, twiggy branches handing down at the outer side of the tree....'Pink Perfection'

Anther stands at the top end of the filament; sepals not serrated; no thin, hanging branches....'Daikoku'

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

Ah, but Kuitert also says about 'Kanzan' on page 283 that, "At the end of flowering, stamens turn to a slight pink; the filaments extend above the anther, extension purplish-red (!)."

 

One is left to assume At the end of flowering is the difference.

 

I finally found some trees in the West End of Vancouver (Broughton north of Alberni)whose stamen filaments extend above the anther, and if Daikoku don't do that, are we back to Pink Perfection? Or I thought Doug talked about something with characteristic curly sepals, but I've totally lost what that was. I didn't think it had stamen filaments extending above the anther. I see that I have an Ichiyo photo with curly stamens, but the blossoms look quite different on that from the front and definitely no filaments extending above the anther as here. And those blossoms aren't as full or as large as these.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

O.K. I still haven't seen the plants in the UBC orchard yet, but I took this picture today (22 April). I'm going to guess that this is 'Pink Perfection'. If you can see serrated sepals, please let me know. Barring any evidence to the contrary, I guess that means that 'Pink Perfection' doesn't have serrated sepals (although the petals are serrated nicely--perhaps this was the problem all along?). Hmmm. Update (23 April): closer inspection reveals that there are serrations on the sepals. See my post below.

 

Maybe it was supposed to be serrated phylloids!

 

The toonie sure helps for scale, really enjoying all these pics and the work you're all doing. Quite an undertaking.

 

Looked up: 28mm diameter, for those not in Canada. Same size as the UK £2 coin, slightly larger than the US $1 'Sacagawea' coin.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

Four 'Pink Perfection' at 4800 Fauntleroy Way SW, Seattle, currently packed with flowers. Other kinds of trees and shrubs seem to be flowering heavily this year.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

From the BC Landscape Plant Improvement Association orchard at UBC. This is the source of the majority of scion wood for Vancouver area nurseries. If these are wrong, we're really in trouble. 'Kanzan' on the left; 'Pink Perfection' on the right. Note "serrations" on 'Pink Perfection'. Alas, poor 'Daikoku', I suppose I never knew you at all.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

Don't despair, Doug. I have two examples of a Kanzan-type tree looking for a name, though since they've abundant hanging branches, I suppose Daikoku isn't it. I'm convinced that my favourite one of these pink things, at Pendrell and Thurlow (it was the last example in my original posting), and the tree in the background here are not the same as all these Kanzans and Pink Perfections, the fact that no-one agrees with me notwithstanding. The floosie Kanzans and Pink Perfections seem to hold their garish skirts up high over their bare limbs, whereas these two trees are much more densely branched with their limbs more fully covered. They were also a different colour from the neighboring trees. I didn't think the Pendrell St one had vexillate filaments, but now when I blow it up, I wonder.

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

Just a few quick questions from someone looking
in from the outside.

From the BC Landscape Plant Improvement
Association orchard at UBC. This is the source
of the majority of scion wood for Vancouver
area nurseries.

Are the relative ages of the trees in the orchard
the same as the street trees as shown in the ten
original photos? Could the scion wood sources
for both the orchard and the street trees be the
same? Why weren't whole trees brought in
rather than budwood and how long have the
trees in the orchard been used for budwood
for other nurseries? Has anyone checked to
see if any of the street trees were grafted or
budded, could any of them be from rooted
cuttings and are any of them double grafted,
such as the standard grafted onto a rootstock
and then the named form scion grafted onto
the standard which was a popular technique
used here in the 80's by grower nurseries?
What quality control was there that what
came in as a labeled budwood could be
verified to be true to the named source
plant and who verified the name of the
source plant? This is not meant to irritate
people but we know in many other plants
that budwood coming into a propagator
have been misnamed and mislabeled for
years. Did any of the orchard budwood
come in as being named Kanzan and were
the original older trees that were planted
in Vancouver originally named Kwanzan?
Who did the budwood from the orchard
trees come from?

"the fact that no-one agrees with me
notwithstanding"

From my vantage point looking at the ten original
photos I do not believe all five trees are the same.
I am curious as to when and how the Pink Perfection
came into Vancouver and who did the plants or the
budwood come in from? The reason I asked is that
Pink Perfection has not been widely available to
growers on the West Coast for very long.

Colt has not been around long as a dwarfing rootstock
for Cherries, whereas mahaleb and mazzard have been
around much longer and even then many of the Flowering
Cherry trees here were propagated on seedling rootstock
that were germinated and grown on for our areas down
here. I remember years ago that even plant breeders
here were growing their own Cherry seedlings to
use as their primary rootstock in the late 50's, 60's
and 70's, both for some commercial plantings for
fruiting trees and for local landscape plantings for
ornamental trees.

Jim

 

Re: Kanzan vs Pink Perfection?? Large showy double pink blossoms, bronze leaves, late

Interesting questions. The BCLPIA orchard was planted with virus-indexed Prunus Sato Zakura cultivars and modern, English cherry hybrids beginning in the mid 1970s. Most of the cherries came from the East Malling Research Staion in England and were virus-indexed and/or cleaned up (virus removed by heat treatment) at a facility run by the federal agriculture department (Agriculture Canada--now Canadian Food Inspection Agency) near Victoria, BC. More virus-indexed stock, including a few Malus cultivars, P. lusitanica and cultivars of P. laurocerasus was added in the nineties, again, from sources in Britain, as well as from the US.

When the orchard was functioning, BCLPIA member nurseries paid for scions that they harvested and for periodic virus indexing of the stock. As well, individuals from a number of local nurseries helped to maintain the trees by pruning for better scion production, flower removal to reduce the incidence of pollen-borne virus transmission, and also by ocassional weed control.

For the period between about 1980 and 2000, the majority of the scions harvested in the BCLPIA orchard were grafted or budded on Mazzard F-12/1 stock, which was (and still is) produced at Trass Nurseries. Trass is one of the few local producers of fruit tree understock (I used to take horticulture students there to see stool production). Since then, timely de-flowering and regular virus-indexing has fallen by the wayside, and scion harvesting has pretty much dried up. UBC Botanical Garden, the default stewards, haven't adequate resources to properly maintain the orchard, and it remains to be seen what will happen to that area of the campus (housing development, in all probability).

This, of course, only covers grafted cherries that were produced locally over a period of about 25 years. Federal plant protection regulations regarding the importation (and export) of cherries have been stringent for many years. But clearly, there are plants in and around Vancouver that were derived elsewhere (i.e., other than the BCLPIA orchard). I expect that for the most part, their planting here predates the established stone fruit regulations. I would estimate the age of most of the obscure species and cultivars to be more than 50 years. Someone with a better understanding of Vancouver's horticultural history (i.e., before 1975) would be helpful at this point.