Is Shindeshojo a weak cultivar?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by maplesmagpie, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    I'm considering a Shindeshojo or a Chishio Improved for our yard. I prefer the pinker tones of Shindeshojo, and from what I've seen of older trees Shindeshojo also seems (?) to have the more open, graceful form.

    I'm hesitant, though, because on the Dave's Garden site it says it's only for zone 6 or higher, and a commenter says it's one of the weakest JM cultivars. Is there such a thing? Anyone growing Shindeshojo in 5b or on the cusp of 6a?

    If you have Chishio Improved, what do you think of its natural form?

    Also, could anyone compare the summer leaf color of both? I'd like a tree that gets as close to true green (not red-green) as possible.
     
  2. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    344
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    I do have a Shin Chishio, and it has proved quite weak. The growth is thin and leggy, tends to be crowded, and hasn't put on much height. Also snails _really_ like this maple, more than any other in the garden, which leads me to think the leaves are thin.

    Summer foliage is OK, but more red-green.

    Gave it a major cleanup this winter, we'll see what happens as it is leafing out now.

    -E
     
  3. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    Thanks for the response, emery. That's interesting about the snails-- I wonder if some cultivars taste better to animals. The rabbits LOVE my Red Dragon but didn't mutilate others nearly as much.

    Have you heard anything about Chishio Improved? When I search the forums, most of what I find is a discussion of the leaf color. I'm very interested in form and hardiness, and I can't find a lot.
     
  4. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    344
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Sorry, my bad! Shin Chishio = Chishio Improved, I think. Shin means new or improved. I'm not at home and so can't consult the checklist, but that's my recollection.
     
  5. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    Yes, you're right! Well then, good to know.

    Anyone know about Shindeshojo's hardiness? It's the tree I want, but there's so little out there about hardiness.... Davidsans online says it "seems hardy and can take some sun," and he's in a similar zone. Perhaps I'll try it.
     
  6. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    KS -> northern AL, USA
    Maplesmagpie, I would email or call Diana at Topiary Gardens (Marcellus, NY) - if anyone can tell you about the cold hardiness of a cultivar, as well as form in your zone, it would be her.
     
  7. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    KS -> northern AL, USA
    As a side note, maybe consider Otome zakura? Great in full sun (even here in Kansas), BRIGHT lipstick pink-red in spring, quite cold hardy and a fast grower when young (mine put on 5-6 ft branches last year); I got mine from Diana, it was one she recommended for both cold and heat, iirc.
     
  8. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    Andrea, thanks! I'll give her a call. Looking up your suggestion....
     
  9. Schattenfreude

    Schattenfreude Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    6a • Independence, Missouri USA
    Magpie,

    I've had my Chioshio Improved for around 6 years, one of my first eBay trees (Bonzai Bob, if not mistaken). I've kept her in a pot ever since, and have never pruned her, although that might change this year. She rarely has much die-back. She has a rather open habit and the fresh leaves are bright red and shiny. Sadly, they don't last as long as I'd like. The tree is mostly green (and not bronze) all summer, starting by mid-May here. The new growth in August really stands out against the green! I'm in zone 6a, by the way. Here are pics from earlier today:

    P4161043.jpg P4161025.JPG P4161027.JPG

    Here are some pics from the last week of May, 2014:

    P5240285.jpg P5240284.JPG

    Kevin in KC
     
  10. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    Schattenfreude, how much sun does yours get? Mine would have all morning sun, ending at about 1pm. I love the green tone-- If I could achieve that, with a hardy/healthy tree, I'd go for it. Thanks for sharing the seller and your zone. I've ordered from Bonzaibob in the past.

    I looked up Otome zakura and I don't think it would work. I really do want a cultivar that will get green or very close to green. Otome zaukra is lovely but looks to be very bronze mid-summer. This is for a spot on one side of the main gate into our yard. On one side there is already an Iijima sunago, so I want a good contrast with those leaves. I also want to add as much soothing green as I can to the yard, as I already have several trees that do the green/red thing.
     
  11. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    KS -> northern AL, USA
    The first picture is the spring color, though it's even brighter and pinker in person (my camera never captures color quite right). The second picture is mid-July in full sun here in Kansas. I like the slightly smaller leaves on it (Iijima has fairly large leaves, iirc), and the nice uniform shape. Of course, in between the pink and the green, it does have it's bronze phase, but that doesn't last terribly long. Hope this helps!
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Schattenfreude

    Schattenfreude Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    6a • Independence, Missouri USA
    Being in a pot, she gets shuffled around. At that point in late May last year, it was sitting in high, dappled shade all day long under a 60 year old oak tree. Later on in August I had her in afternoon sun from about 1-3 pm (aghast!) to help with fall color. She took the hot, Missouri sun just fine, probably due to her thicker leaves. I'd think that your morning sun would be perfect up north!

    I'm not familiar with Shindeshojo, so can't compare the two.

    Kevin in KC
     
  13. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    Good to know.

    I still haven't heard anything about Shindeshojo, so I called Diana and left a message. Hopefully her experience will clarify everything-- I wouldn't want to miss out on the taller cultivar because of one review on Dave's Garden.
     
  14. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

    Messages:
    750
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    KS -> northern AL, USA
    Diana is super busy right now, as all nurseries are, so if you don't hear back from her by Monday, call her again - you can say I sent you to her, that may jog her memory to call you back, lol. :) Good luck with whatever you decide!
     
  15. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    344
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Interesting the variation in the Shin Chishios. It may well be that I just have a weak specimen, as sometimes happens. Mine is in full sun, which isn't strong here compared to anything in the US mid-west, but for sure it never goes full green as the year goes on. On thing of note is that the July growth on mine is very showy.

    I'd better get some snail bait out today, noticed yesterday a young A. discolor was attacked by the snails... :( and Shin Chishio is just leafing out.

    edit: took 2 pictures of shin Chishio and one of a 2nd year graft of Deshojo for comparison.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  16. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    344
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Hm. Couldn't add the photos while editing although everything seemed to be working. Trying again, sorry photos are rotated!
     

    Attached Files:

  17. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    Thanks, emery! Love those red leaves-- I like the form of your Shin chishio, actually.

    I'm waiting to call Diana back-- she left a message on Friday, but I don't have the heart to call her back on a weekend. I'll make sure to update the thread with what she shares.
     
  18. marymyers

    marymyers Active Member Maple Society

    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Poulsbo, Washington, USA
    I love Shindeshojo. Last year my 7 foot tree just up and died. It was the only tree of many that I lost. I have no idea what caused this demise.
     
  19. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    Shindeshojo is one of my favourite trees. I love the truly pink leaves. It is doing well here so must be considered perfectly hardy for your area as described. Attached pic is from yesterday as it is just opening out now
    You can see other pics on my website Shindeshojo
     

    Attached Files:

  20. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    That is lovely! Thank you for sharing, Sam. Exactly what I'm hoping to achieve.

    I just spoke with Diana at Topiary gardens. She is so incredibly helpful and kind. She said Shindeshojo is hardy enough to withstand 5b, but when young it will benefit from burlap protection and, at all ages, protection from cold winter winds.

    She's in 5a, and she said her Shindeshojo out in the field has a lot of dieback. Another one in a more protected area does fine with no dieback. She said the same is true for Corallinum and Mure Hibari, two other trees I'm considering. Both are growing for her in 5a, but they need a protected site.

    Interestingly enough, my zone 5b potted JM experiment seems to have had good results-- all but the Shidava Gold are still alive and the buds are swelling. So I'm thinking if Shindeshojo can make it through this last winter in a pot in 5b, it can probably do well long term in the ground. We shall see!

    I also asked her for her opinion on Shin Chishio vs. Shindeshojo, and she said Shindeshojo is hardier and is less twiggy.
     
  21. Blinky1

    Blinky1 New Member

    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Here is a photo of my three red maples side-by-side for your comparison. From left to right - Beni Maiko, Shin Deshojo and Chishio Improved.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Blinky1

    Blinky1 New Member

    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Few more photos.
    -photo #1 - Beni Maiko and Shin Deshojo (Spring color)
    -photo #2 - Beni Maiko (Fall color)
    -photo #3 - Chishio Improved (Fall color)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
  23. maplesmagpie

    maplesmagpie Active Member

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Zone 5b, along Lake Michigan in WI
    Wow, Blinky, you're running a great side-by-side comparison there! What are your opinions on the three cultivars? I had considered Beni Maiko, but I read in a few places that its color fades more quickly than the other two. Do any of them seem more sensitive to wind, sun, or cold? And in terms of vigor, what are you seeing from each?
     
  24. Blinky1

    Blinky1 New Member

    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Hi maplesmagpie,
    Color intensity-wise, I find all three to be very close, with Shin Deshojo having a slight edge. Beni Maiko and Chishio Improved have a deeper red. The intense red on Shin Deshojo and Beni Maiko does not hold for very long though, which I don't mind and think is what makes them special as they keep me looking forward to each spring. Shin Deshojo does look more delicate of the three with its twiggy branch structure. Beni Maiko looks more dense and hardy in comparison. Where I am in the Pacific Northwest, heat and wind is not an issue and so I don't know how they fair under those conditions. However, in the short time that I have these three maples, I personally find the Chishio Improved to have the most well-balanced of some of the Japanese maple characters - colors, form, hardiness... I really like the leaf proportion, size and texture of the CI. I also like its form and structure...not as dense as Beni Maiko or as twiggy as Shin Deshojo. These are my personal experiences. Hope they help.
     

    Attached Files:

  25. Blinky1

    Blinky1 New Member

    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Sorry, I am having trouble posting photos as you can see.
     

Share This Page