Interesting coincidence -- interspecific grafting

Discussion in 'Maples' started by SilverVista, May 2, 2005.

  1. SilverVista

    SilverVista Active Member

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    On the recent Acer shirasawanum thread, we wandered from discussing shirasawanum grafted onto palmatum, to the superior vigor of japonicum rootstock, took a detour into the idea of grafting Acer circinatum dwarfs onto japonicum since they so often overwhelm the palmatum rootstock.

    Well.....

    On Saturday I picked up three new treasures that I had ordered -- Acer x shirasawanum 'Sensu', Acer x shirasawanum 'Johin' and Acer shirasawanum 'Autumn Moon.' I was eager to talk to someone knowledgeable outside the forum group about some of the various issues we've discussed in the last couple of weeks, and the japonicum as understock topic came up. Well, it turns out that Michael's final question about the vigor of Acer circinatum on the other thread was right on target -- All three of my new shirasawanum are grafted onto circinatum! I asked why, and the answer was "look at this Autumn Moon, how do you suppose we got this much good growth on it in a year?" I found it terribly amusing that last week we were talking about putting circinatum on japonicum, and here people are putting shirasawanum on circinatum. So much more to think about now!

    By the way, the 'Sensu' is my favorite -- not much for color right this minute, but it has small, very delicate leaves that look a bit like 'Palmatifolium' but more pronounced.

    Susan
     
  2. Andre

    Andre Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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  3. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Susan--

    My question probably arose from the same discussion you had with the same individual or his partner in the experiement. What I found unique, is that the graft is somewhat tailored geographically to our area, where it might not be ideal in all areas.
    I was able to inspect some 3 year plants of Aureum and Autumn Moon and the graft compatability seemed good as well as uniform in growth. No over or under growth yet.

    As a side note, I have a 2 year plants of Johin and Sensu, as well as fresh grafts from world plants. Johin is easily outpacing Sensu as much as 3:1. I also like Sensu a bit better, wher it appears that Johin might be a moderately sized tree much like Red Dawn or Yasemin. I am not seeing much vigor out of either of my Sensu plants, but I suspect that it will be a slow grower or need to be established before we see the growth rate increase.

    Michael
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Susan:

    Keep us informed with the results of your three Maples.
    I too had 'Sensu' and 'Johin' come in. Both were grafted
    on Palmatum and the 'Sensu' took a turn for the worse
    last week and is not going to come out it. I hope your
    Maples were much older than mine were as they were
    way too young for release anywhere. They should have
    been held in a greenhouse for at least 3 more months
    prior to their release. There is some doubt elsewhere
    that both 'Sensu' and 'Johin' are of Shirasawanum
    descent.

    'Autumn Moon' has been grafted on Circinatum in the
    past but mainly in Oregon, not too much here at all. We
    always grafted 'Autumn Moon' on Japonicum. My
    ‘Aureum’ out of Washington is grafted on Circinatum
    so I am kinda anxious to see how well it does for me.
    We have to be cautious with some of these Maples
    showing good growth in their early years on a different
    species understock. We can be fooled by it.

    Circinatum feet have not done well for us here. We felt a
    lot of that was due to our heat and the fact that the seed
    parents were not raised here. So we chose a Japonicum
    understock for all Shirasawanum we grew here instead
    feeling the rootstock was already better adapted to our
    conditions.

    Jim
     
  5. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Andre:

    See the gallery, I posted some photos of my two year plants. You will see the World Plants photo pretty well represents the look of the cultivars.

    Sensu is the more unique or different of the two.

    Jim:
    I am with you on your statement about the validity or likliness of the supposed interspecific hybrid cross. You can see the new or second flush of growth on Johin in the photo I just posted and it is definately representative of palmatum, but again the orientation of the leaves and the way they are held on the petiole is confusing.

    Not knowing much about a new introduction like these, it is not fair to criticize, so for now, it is wait and see. These two are certainly closer than the Red Dawn I have been observing! That tree requires even more of a leap of faith to call it a hybrid.

    Michael
     
  6. mendocinomaples

    mendocinomaples Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Michael brings up an excellent point that perhaps the circinatum rootstock gives the shirasawanum scion an advantage in the local northwest climates. One would assume this is because that is where circinatum is endemic and local roots mean improved growth of the plant.

    If this is so, then perhaps other similar situations might be possible. I have been experimenting with local A. negundo ssp. californicum rootstock on the negundo cultivars and getting favorable results. Here in the Mendocino area (NW CA-Coastal) the local rootstock seems to outperform the "regular" negundo rootstock.

    The big question is will these interspecific graftings be of value (not $) elsewhere? For example, Circinatum though native to this county, does not do well on my property. Most likely we are too hot and dry in the summer and our soil is heavy clay. Sure it grows but it does not thrive like along the local northern creeks. Is it the roots or the foliage that does not like it here?

    Does this mean that the circinatum X shirawanum plants will do better or worse here? There are many variables to consider and only time and trials here will tell. Interspecific shirasawanum grafts look like another fun experiment I must try!

    robert
     
  7. yweride

    yweride Active Member 10 Years

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    SilverVista were did you purchase such maples?

    I know that the ones i have are grafted on palmatum rootstock. And yes, as you have observed, my 'Johin' is growing a little faster in contrast to 'Sensu'. According to Talon Buchholz, 'Johin' will grow six feet by three feet wide in ten years. And 'Sensu' will grow eight feet tall by five feet wide in ten years.

    Hopefully, i will get around to posting pictures of them next week.

    As a side note, i've got a few #3 'Johin's in stock for $39 and 'Sensu's in #6 and #10 for $39 and $69.
     
  8. SilverVista

    SilverVista Active Member

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    Location:
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    yweride,
    This particular purchase was from Norm Jacobs at Arbutus Garden Arts in Yamhill/Carlton. Most of my stock comes from wholesale connections or exchanged scion wood, but I enjoy Norm and Deb and find their knowledge and enthusiasm to be very exciting and enlightening. Each year they have a booth at the Master Gardeners Sale in Canby, and I am a member of the Canby FFA Alumni who assist the fairgrounds by staffing the gate crew for such events. I receive a $100 bill from a certain source every Christmas, and I tuck it away till the plant sale every year. Norm's booth is my first stop. Obviously, I could just drive across the valley any time, and obviously, I could --and do -- spend the grocery money on plants too, but this is a routine that I look forward to each spring.

    I understand that their gardens are a most worthwhile visit. I'm hoping that I'll be able to clear out a Saturday, perhaps in late September, to make the trip.

    Susan
     
  9. Andre

    Andre Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Here in Paris Acer pseudoplatanus grows very well and quickly.

    Do you think I could graft some Acer palmatum cultivar on it ???
     
  10. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Hi Andre,

    Almost certainly not - graft compatibility in maples seems to be limited to closely related species, and these two are in different sections of the genus
     
  11. Andre

    Andre Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thank you Michael !
    I was just wandering if anybody has already try this combination pseudoplatanus/palmatum.

    Sometimes Mother Nature surprises us ;-)
     
  12. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Andre,
    Antoine le Hardy de Beaulieu on page 301 of his book An Illustrated Guide to Maples
    says,"One advantage of the sycamore maple [acer pseudoplatanus] is that it can be
    used as rootstock for propagating most maples, even those belonging to a different
    section." I do not graft but on 8/15 I emailed Antoine thru his editor at Timber Press
    but never received a reply about his above quoted comment. I love the variegated
    pseudoplatanuses and wonder what personal experience other board members have
    had using pseudoplatanus as a rootstock for palmatum etc scions?
     

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