Hi everyone, I'm a newbie to this site - and gardening - but I'm eager to learn as much as I can. We bought a 100 year old house in Phoenixville, PA last month, with mature trees and gardens. It's my first bit of earth, and I'm fascinated, in wonder and awe of the plants growing here. In particular, there is a beautiful Japanese Maple that I was told is probably as old as the house (is that possible?) that I feel a great responsibility for nurturing. I'm trying to identify it, and get advice for taking care of it. Its leaves are green now, but when we first saw the tree in May, they were red. I estimate it's height at 15ft. I'm posting a couple of pictures that I took today, and one from the inspection in May. Thank you for your help, and I look forward to learning from all of you! Tina
Tina- You have a beautiful and appearingly very healthy specimen. You said it was red in may? Some green dissectums will leaf out red/pink for a few weeks and then take on the full green color. Was the red prolonged or short-lived and more pink? Is the large bronze-colored tree in picture 3 the same as in picture 1 and 2? If so, where is the light green foliage on the tree? And were all 3 pictures taken at the same time? I don't think your tree will need any special care, as whatever the current culture, it looks great. Normal care and appropriate light spring and fall fertilization should keep it going strong. Michael
Thank you for your help! Unfortunately, we moved into the house in early August, and only viewed the tree once briefly before then (in May). My memory of exact color from that viewing is vague (I seem to remember red). All of the pictures are of the same tree. Picture 3 was taken in May during our house tour/inspection, and pictures 1 and 2 were taken yesterday afternoon. The attachments on this message are the same tree, taken this morning. Thanks again! Tina
Your dissectum Your location, Phoenixville, Pa. is only about 35 Miles from the famous Red Maple Nursery in Media, PA.. That nursery was the late Richard P. Wolff's nursery. He is renowned for the introduction of such great Japanese Maples as 'Emperor I', 'Moonfire' and 'Green Mist'. Another cultivar that has a link to Red Maple Nursery is 'Edgewood's Golden'. It is a dissectum that is an orange/red in spring and again in fall. It is a green dissectum but I don't believe that it's color in mid-summer is as light a green as yours shows. 'Green Mist' is an orange/red in fall so I am assuming that it's new growth in spring is also an orange/red. You may have one of Richard P. Wolff's maples.
Hi Tina: Let me see what this Maple looks like in the Fall and I'll identify it for you. I already am 90% sure I know this Maple but I want to be certain based on the Fall color. You will want to provide some pics for this forum for us to see a little later in the year. Elmore: There was another nursery in Pennsylvania that had a "pipeline" to recent introductions from Oregon. More specifically Fred Bergman at Raraflora. Personally, I do not believe this Maple is a Red Maple Nursery introduction as I know it as an introduction from a series of three seedling selections, all having their origins from a nursery in Canby, Oregon. Mr. Vertrees did cite one of the three forms in his 2nd Edition book. All three have the same basic growth pattern but the incised cutting of the leaves and the coloring of the leaves during the growing season is what sets them apart from each other. "Edgewood's Golden" is a subject we can discuss at another time and perhaps another place. The rust red coloring (not a bronze red, nor an orange red) in the Spring and then the light green leaves during the Summer makes this one quite unusual for people that have not ever seen one and yes, in 30 years this Maple in the right setting can be this large. I will have to see what the Fall color looks like before I can commit to it. Jim
Pipeline "There was another nursery in Pennsylvania that had a "pipeline" to recent introductions from Oregon." Jim, I am sure that Richard P. Wolff was involved with growers on the west coast, his interactions with Vertrees are legendary, but I was referring to his introductions. The trees that he selected at Red Maple Nursery in PA.
Richard Wolff raised a lot of seedlings hoping to come up with new and better colored reds. Yes, Emperor I is one of his and so was Red Emperor. I knew about them from Don and Toichi Domoto before they were ever even named. Moonfire may have come from Richard Bush in Oregon, at least I was told that years ago when Moonfire first came into Don’s nursery. We were told that any of the green Maples that Red Maple Nursery had were used for grafting or any greens with promise were to go to J.D. Vertrees. I believe the word that was used for Green Mist was that it was “discovered†by Richard Wolff, which can translate to not necessarily originating from him or from his nursery. Several plants that were registered through the RHS were invariably originally discovered in Japan, yet later named in Europe. Personally, I cannot say for certain where or how some people got some of their Maples on the East Coast but I do know what more than one source including Mr. Vertrees has told me about specific people and how they got some of their original plants. Maple origins have to be taken with a grain salt anyway as the person that named the Maple may not have been the person that originally grew the Maple. By the way, Beni shidare variegated was given to Mr. Vertrees by Don and Pauline Croxton whose nursery name was Maple Wood Nursery. Notice the similarity of two nursery spellings as it was important at one time as there were some Maples that J.D. got from Don and Pauline that were attributed by others as originating from J.D. at Maplewood nursery instead. We all have assumed that Mr. Vertrees traveled to Japan and other countries bringing back with him Maples for him to grow and to evaluate. In one of my threads that I started the reason why this did not happen was given. Mr. Vertrees did not have clearance to bring in Maples from various Pacific Rim (Asian) countries into Oregon without those plants being held under quarantine at the Chico Experimental Station for no less than 6 months. The only alternatives were to bootleg in the plants from another country, bring in plants from East of the Rockies that did not have the same restrictions as we had with Pacific Rim plants or bring in seeds of the plants to later try to germinate. There were plants being shuffled to and from the East Coast and the West Coast with regularity throughout starting in the 60’s. Various Pines and other Conifers may have come into here and several Maples went out from here in return. To say that this person or that person on the East Coast developed a particular Maple has always been seen by some people on the West Coast as being suspicious. Right or wrong that is how it was and for me personally it is why I hold the European Maples enthusiasts under the same proverbial microscope as with several of their Maples I just do not believe them yet about their origins. It becomes my problem and not theirs but I know what has gone on with various Conifers in the past and I have good reason to be suspicious of the Europeans. That is why I would want to know where their forms of Japanese Maples originated from but I may be the only person to want to know that information. I am sure some of them feel that same in that our Maple origins here are suspicious to them as well and I surely cannot fault them at all for feeling that way. Our hedge against the so-called derision of the two sides of the “great pond†is having an idea as to what has gone on in Japan and when we’ve asked we had access to a few people that would tell us what they knew about certain Maples of theirs. What is all of this leading up to? Okay, Tina, I’ve seen you looking into the UBC forums and I have to believe that you are wanting someone to tell you what your Maple is. The dilemma is that I may be the only person that has a “bead†on this one because I know the history of this Maple. I know where it originated and who originally grew the Maple. I have a sister seedling of it and I also have this Maple. If someone were to guess what it is and can tell why it is what they are calling it, I’ll be glad to confirm it for them and for you but I feel the need for me to see more proof based on what I know of your Maple. The conclusive proof for me now will be to see the what the Maple looks like in the Fall. Why is the proof important? A perfect case in point is a Maple that someone from New York posted wanting to know what it is. Various people have written about that Maple cultivar in this forum. One person in particular has shown pictures of his Maple in the Maple Photo Gallery. Now, here is someone else’s Maple and no one seemingly can tell him what his Maple is. I cautioned people that that kind of thing would happen. No one in this forum believed me but my knowing that kind of stuff comes from my own experience of knowing what I went through years ago when I would learn to know our Maples here and then see them elsewhere and wondered what I was seeing. Crimson Queen here looks different than a Crimson Queen does in Oregon. A Moonfire here looks different during the growing season than a Moonfire will grown in Virginia. A Butterfly grown here may look entirely different than a Butterfly will grown in England. Why is it that Red Dragon grown in New Zealand does not have the same coloration as we get and our plants originally came in from New Zealand? People will not comprehend that kind of stuff until they see things for themselves. All I’ve done is act like the parent that tells junior what not to do knowing he will do it anyway. Yet, 10 years later he is cautioning someone else what I warned him about. It takes time for the siblings to realize what you were trying to tell them and why but in futility it goes in one ear and out the other until they realize first hand why you had told them what you did. Jim
Before I flew home I tried to correct some silly errors but I was not able to edit from my end.. Brad, what I wrote has nothing to do with you. I've heard two conflicting reports on Moonfire and to be honest I do not know who did originate that Maple. I have no way of finding out for sure now as sadly none of the parties are still amongst us. I can still be wrong about this Maple and I think for me to involve myself in any Maple ID's (I'll be quite frank that I went against my own better judgement getting involved in this thread) that I will have to have the proof I am looking for whether it is Michael's, Layne's or Tina's Maples. Sometimes we have to wait and see these Maples at various times during the year to have a better idea what they are or might be. Other than that I have nothing more to write in this particular thread. Write what you' want as I probably will not reply to anything until I know more about the Fall colors of this Maple. I crossed the line for me in giving away too much info again. Info that few if any others know much of anything about. I do not know why it is that I feel agitated every time I do that with Maples. Conifers, Fruit Trees, other trees, no problem but Maples - yep, big time problem for me. Part of the reason is because I do not like writing about people that cannot defend themselves and the only way to stop it from happening is for me to stop doing it. Enough said I think. Jim
fall color Here are some pictures taken of my tree yesterday morning (11/1/04). Such a lovely tree, it's captured my heart.
Apart from the fact that there are a great many closely similar cultivars of Japanese garden plants, including weeping laceleaf Japanese maples such as yours, there is also the possibility that your specimen is an unnamed seedling, sold and planted without having been given its own name. So, even if you learn of a plant that seems the same it may not, in fact, be exactly the same cultivar. Without some kind of confirming, written documentation I would be quite wary of afixing a varietal name to it and telling others that's what it is.
Hi Tina: We never got to see the richness of Fall color like this on ours but I do know this Maple. From what I can see in all of the pictures, I am real pleased to say this one, to me, as of today looks... Otto's dissectum. This one originated as a seedling selection in Canby, Oregon, back in the mid to late 60's. This Maple is not standard in the nursery trade. Only 3 West Coast nurseries that I know of ever had it. Don considered the earliest Spring color an apricot orange turning to a copper in early Summer and then to a light green throughout Summer. The Fall colors are a glowing orange with golden yellow undertones with a few splashes of crimson in the shaded areas, a strong orange tinged light red in the sunnier areas of the Maple. I can be more certain your Maple is Otto's when I see the initial color in the Spring. About a month later you will see the darker rust red instead but the rust red is even throughout the Maple for about 2 weeks. Then green undertones will be seen but the newest growth until Summer will be the copper (light green tinged with the apricot orange) just like ours are. Do not let too many nurserymen know what you have or they will want wood from this tree. I suggest you keep the wood "vultures" away from it if you want to keep the very nice shape of this tree intact. Your photos are truly excellent. Thank you so much for showing us your great Maple. Jim Ron: You are quite correct in your assessment of names. There were two other unnamed seedlings similar to Otto's that came to Don unnamed as well as Red Head from the Canby nursery. Don did not name the two similar seedlings either. The difference aside from the leaf shapes is the Spring color in that only Otto's of the three will turn the apricot orange at first then later turn a brilliant rust red. Some of the newer growth on the two other seedlings in the Spring will have some rust red touches on some of the newest leaves turning to a bronze red but they fade out rather fast with any warmth or direct afternoon sun, whereas the heat and sun does not affect the series of Spring colors of Otto's. I have to remind myself that is what was true for us but may not be true grown elsewhere. We never sold the other seedlings but they may have been outlet to other Oregon nurseries at one time or another, probably much more recently than at any particular time. The originating nursery is now (within the last 3 years) under new ownership. I cannot be sure about whether any of the 3 Maples were sold or given to a few others in Oregon or not but I believe they were not outlet to any other West Coast nurseries other than Don Kleim's nursery for a number of years. Otto's dissectum is known to have been introduced into one Pennsylvania nursery in particular as early as 1974 from what Don told me years ago.
Tina tis truly a special tree. Thanks for sharing, Where I am I'ld live in a tent to have a tree like that out front:) regards doug
Since it's producing seeds there is some possibility of growing seedlings to give to friends (growing a large number might result in a small number of laceleaf offspring). Otherwise, they can probably content themselves with buying other clones of weeping laceleaf Japanese maple at nurseries, as the same exact combination of attributes may not be required. Japanese maples are very popular, fully stocked nurseries will have many to choose from.
Tina .... can I be your friend ? LOLOL Tina ... that is one stunning tree .... you are a lucky girl to have such a mature healthy specimin in your garden Personally I believe that it is very difficult to name a Japanese Maple, as their colour and form depend so much on their location (sun/shade, warmer/cooler climate, soil conditions etc etc). For that reason I enjoy the opinions given by our most informative participants to this forum, and this thread in particular. It matters not whether they are right or wrong .... more important that they are giving an informed opinion that deserves considered thought Mt Shep seems convinced, and he appears to be a man of great experience and knowledge on the subject. For that reason, and the fact that I have no reason at all to disbelieve him, I think you have probably the best opinion on the name of your tree that it is possible to get That said (and I know it is nice to have a name for the tree) the beauty of the beast is more important in the long run Enjoy your special acquisition
Hi Sam: I still want to see this Maple in the early Spring and then see the rust red coloring develop a little later. If I do not see what I think I will, then I'll shake my head some and then ask myself okay, what is this Maple then? We wanted to see a Maple for two years at various stages during the growing season before we would commit to a name, if there was one. Our views on what we see today and are confident of the plant being can dramatically change soon thereafter. Let me see one thing that is not right for Otto's and I'll be sure to inform everyone of it. Best regards, Jim
Thank you! Thank you everyone (and especially you, Mr Shep!) for your information, excitement and enthusiasm regarding this Maple. I thought it was a special tree the moment I saw it. I'm starting to know my neighbors on the street a little better, and I think I shall start asking them if they remember anything about this property, or the owners from back then. It would be fascinating to see if I could dig up pictures of the tree in its youth! The previous owner of the house (she lived here for 10 years...) left a note for us that said to trim the dead branches from the underside of the tree in the fall. Is this a good idea? Is it something my husband and I could do, or should we call a professional? I have another large Maple in the backyard that I'd like to post pictures of in the next week or two. I hope to utilize the information and links provided here in this forum to figure out what the tree is, and dazzle you all with my resourcefulness. If I can't figure it out, I am counting on the kindness of my new friends here to help me figure out what it is and how to care for it :-) Kind regards, Tina
Dead twigs can be snapped off by hand, those not dead enough to snap can be left in place until they are.
trimming your JM Tina, Your tree is absolutely magnificent! If I drive up to PA to help you trim your tree, can I haul off all the litter?... LOL Sabi
Tina, You should be so proud of your Maple, it truely is a fantastic specimin and the coloration is magnificent. Good luck on your quest to locate earlier pictures of the tree. I look forward to seeing pictures of the maple from your back yard. : )
Did Tina ever find out the name of the stunning maple tree. Makes my old tree (50 +yrs) by the front gate look drab by comparison. Liz
