Help me pick a nice companion jm for Seiryu

Discussion in 'Maples' started by rufretic, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    I've been trying to pick a jm that will contrast well with Seiryu. The location is the entrance to a path that leads into a wild forest. I have a 8' Seiryu on each side about 10' back and 10' to each side of the path. Now I would like to add a smaller tree on each side right at the front of the path. I'm looking for ideas for a nice jm that won't out grow this position, will contrast nicely with the Seiryus and will have a nice interesting leaf on close inspection since the trees will be passed by everytime I walk through the path. Lets hear your suggestions. Thanks!
     
  2. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    I forgot to mention the sun will be filtered most of the day with maybe 1 hour direct sun in the late afternoon.

    My top picks right now are red pygmy, a few of the ghost series might work well, aka shigatsusawa and amagi shigure. Some of those may get too large eventually but I'm pretty sure there is enough room to grow as long as they wont out grow the seiryu. I already have a lot of red dissectums so that's why I don't have any in the list but I know a few of them might work well also so I'm open to suggestions on those as well. Anything that will get wider than 10' will grow too far into the path so keep that in mind. Thanks again.
     
  3. prairiestyle

    prairiestyle Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    My first thought was 'Beni hoshi'/'Ruby Stars'. The red amoenum leaves are lovely, and look nice next to green dissected ones, IMO. It's a smaller tree too, but maybe too small for what you want?
     
  4. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    My vote is for Beni ubi gohon, though would that be too small? Olsen's Frosted Strawberry would be very nice too. Or maybe Nuresagi if you kept it pruned? The leaves are a gorgeous deep purple, and it has a very refined, elegant presence about it. One of my favorites...
     
  5. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    Beni hoshi sounds like it would work well as far as size and spring & fall color but I would like more contrast in the summer months.

    Any reason you would pick Beni ubi gohon over Red pigmy? It looks like a nice tree for the spot but I think the yellow orange fall of red pigmy might contrast better against the reds of the Seiryu fall colors? I'm not sure on this because I didn't get much of a fall showing on my seiryus this year but they looked to have mostly reds, this was my first year with them. If you have both Beni ubi gohon & seiryu, please give more details on the fall colors together.
    I've heard too many horror stories about OFS dying and being non hardy so I don't think I want to try that one. Nuresagi looks like it would contrast beautifully most of the year but I don't want to plant a tree I would have to consistantly prune, it would get way too large for this spot otherwise.
     
  6. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    Since I can't be there to see the sight, I have to envision what you describe. We have a woodland backdrop (generally speaking green in color) and a path. We have two Seiryu on either side of the path (green and vase shape. The vase shape will contrast the very upright woodland trees and the green lace leaf texture will still contrast the green leaves of the woodland trees.)

    I like contrasts in color so I feel red or burgundy will make a sharp contrast. I also like complimentary shapes and I feel a mounding Japanese maple will complement the vase shape of a Seiryu. (some Seiryu start very upright, but then the canopy spreads into a vase shape with age, or at least all the very old Seiryu I have seen are all somewhat vase shaped)

    Go with an equally mature, low grafted red dissectum. Low graft because it is going in front of the Seiryu and a standard graft will be too tall and take away from Seiryu. Also a low graft will have a really cool and interesting trunk with great interest and character. There are many varieties out there, so go with one that holds its color well in the lighting and throughout the season. My experience with Garnet is that it holds its color well in a variety of lighting throughout the growing season. So does Red Filigree but it grows extremely slow, so finding the right size on the market will be hard.

    Keeping the idea of interesting leaves, I think Acer palmatum Hana matoi will add the interesting leaves. But from a distance the contrast in color will not be as strong (but will still be a good contrast). I think it would look good. But the problem is the tree is newer here in the US and the only mature specimens that I have come across in the market for purchase are grafted on standard.

    I know my suggestion is not recommending an amazing new introduction with outstanding spring leaves, which I am sure is very boring to most. But here’s the thing, spring colors fade. It’s great to see interesting leaves up close, but many times the greatest impact that matters the most is when its being viewed the most. (summer colors are usually the longest lasting and most of the time spent viewing a tree is when we are from a distance that you can’t make out leaf details (unless its right next to your patio where you spend most of your time). That is when contrasting color and texture between two plantings has the greatest impact.

    So I envision a tree like this (see attached picture) by the pathway into your woods placed in front of your Seiryu. My picture even has the tall trees and a path, the only thing missing is the Seiryu.
     

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  7. maplesandpaws

    maplesandpaws Active Member

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    rufretic - Like JT, I was thinking you needed a more mounding form to contrast with the upright vase shape of the Seiryu. Plus, I think you should also look for a contrasting leaf shape, along with contrasting color. I hadn't thought of fall color (I don't have a Beni ubi gohon yet, on my list for next year), but again, JT brings up a good point. The longest 'color season' for the maples is summer, and Beni ubi gohon is supposed to retain it's red fairly well, so this would be a nice counterpoint to the Seiryu.

    I kind of like his suggestion of Hana matoi too. I picked up a very nice one from Sam at Eastfork earlier this year, a 3g about 4ft tall (in the pot), very nicely branched and low grafted. You may want to check with her come spring to see if she has anything similar.
     
  8. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    Thanks JT for the well thought out response as always. I agree that this spot would be ideal for a red dissectum. My only problem with that is I have so many already and none really stand out as that different so I really don't want to add another two unless it is something special. Hana matoi would have been a good choice but I already added a nice one not too far away. I'm not sure if there is anything like this available but I would love to find one that has a very dark purple color that would hold in the little sun it will recieve in this spot. I think that could work well and look different enough that it would not look like my other red dissectums. Any cultivars come to mind?
     
  9. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    I agree as well, that would be the right shape and color. The reason I asked you more about the Beni ubi gohon is because I believe it to be very close in size and color to red pigmy which is already on my list of possibilities for this spot. I'm going to add it as well and if it comes down to a linearilobum, I will have to decide between those two based on what I can find researching them. Thank you for the good suggestion!
     
  10. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    Alex66 mentions Acer palmatum Ginshi (not Kinshi, most search engines default to Kinshi) in the Red Linearilobum with yellow fall colors post. Alex describes his experience as:

    i suggest this: jm Ginshi ,have a purple leaves in spring and yellow in autumn,the exp. is sun in morning shade in afteroon ,in this part of my garden the PH is neutral to low.

    He posted a picture too. I have no experience with this tree, so I cant speak for its purple color. Some growers describe it as being like Red Pygmy. My red pygmy gets a good amount of shade and it is very green. The tree I gave my parents was grafted from better stock in my opinion, and it did have more purple with green undertones when I had it in the same location.

    Here is some info that you might find helpful in researching linearlobums ie The Skinny
    http://florawonder.blogspot.com/2012/04/skinny.html

    I am out of time this morning, but I have a few ideas to share later...
     
  11. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    Wow, great info in that link! Thank you so much for that. It sounds like my 'red pigmy' choice is deffinetly not the best for a nice dark red/purple color through summer. I've only seen 'red pigmy' in person in the spring and really liked the look of it at that time of year, that's how it got on my list. Anyway, I really love how that 'Hubbs red willow' looks in those two pics. The color looks exactly like what I want and the leaves look HUGE! I would love a linearilobum with huge leaves like that, mine all seem pretty small. Plus 'Seiryu' has pretty small leaves so I would like the contrast in leaf size as well! Looks like I have some more research to do.
     
  12. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    What's the deal with this 'Hubbs red willow?' I can't find much on it or any other pics of it. In Vertrees 4th edition it is only in the "cultivars not yet assessed" section and says the true name is 'Hupp's red willow.' I like the small description though and matches the looks of those pics from the link. When I searched the web I found that Buchholz has it with a good description as well but has the same two pics from that link plus two additional close ups of the leaves.

    Does anyone here grow it? This site is my main place for research and usually I can find a ton of good info on any cultivar here. Not this one, there is barely anything on it not even a photo gallery thread. The only thing I found was a thread with a debate on the name hupp vs hubb and nobody really seems to know lol. I found that Davidsans lists 'Hubb's red willow' as a tree they cary which is good because that is where I get most of my jms but they don't have much of a description. This tree would be my top pick but I'm only baseing that off a couple nice pics and descriptions. What I'd really like before I decide would be to hear some real life observations and see a few more pictures other than the one tree I've seen pictures of.
     
  13. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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  14. pat bateman

    pat bateman Member

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    I don't think Kinshi would be my choice. Although the leaf shape is different the colour is very close to Seiryu and mine is never purple - it is lime green in spring and the autumn colour is yellow.

    I'd go Shirasawanum Autumn Moon as mine stays lime green when my Seiryu has gone a bit dull in colour.
     

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  15. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    I actually have two small 'autumn moon' that I could transplant in this spot. They were a nice orange color in the spring which might look real pretty against the light green 'seiryu.' I like the contrast in leaf shape as well. I think for this spot I'd rather have a purple color or reticulate for the summer months. I'd love to put 'purple ghost' here but I think it might get too large and I'm guessing most of the beautiful pictures I've seen are not in summer so I'm not really sure how the color holds.
     
  16. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    Any thoughts on 'Amagi Shigure?' It seems to meet most of the things I'm looking for, size, holds color well in shade, and interesting leaves on close inspection. I'm just hoping the pink/purple won't be too much and take away from the 'Seiryu.'
     
  17. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

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    Nice choice on the "Olsen's Frosted Strawberry." I messed up when I responded before, I confused it with "Kandy kitchen" ah these names! Anyway, I just now descovered what a great maple "Olsen's Frosted Strawberry" looks to be and have to have it. I think it will have the perfect small size for this spot and the spring color will contrast beautifully with the light green of the "Seiryu." Plus it has the awesome reticulated leaves that will add interest while being viewed passing by into the path which was another trait I wanted. The only thing I'm not sure about is the summer & fall colors. It sounds like it holds the reticulation well all summer which is great but I'm just wondering if it turns a pale green in the summer like a lot of the other reticulates. I checked the photo gallery and all the pics are beautiful but I think they are all spring time pics. Anyone know what this one looks like in the summer and fall? Or even better, have pictures?
     
  18. copperbeech

    copperbeech Active Member

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    I have been searching for this maple this winter and it is hit and miss that I will be able to get it this season.
     

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