I just bought a new eureka lemon to replace a tree that suffered an unfortunate fate due to being too near the door in the winter (at least that is my hypothesis). Anyway, it's full blown summer here (colorado) and temperature should definetly not be an issue right now. I just potted this tree yesterday and it seems to be slumping down and I really think it is only a matter of days before it is dead. Is there anytyhing I can do to salvage it at this point? The condition has been getting worse throughout the day. I potted it using river rocks (landscaping style from the side of my house) in the very bottom, followed by a 3 to 1 ratio of CHC and peat moss. Above that is some decorative tumbled stones that were from the garden store. I also removed any existing soil from the root ball by soaking it in a bucket of cold water and gently working it away. If it is of any use, I potted a second tree yesterday as well and it seems to be doing fine. Thanks in advance for any advice!
Two things here... 1) I do not consider myself a expert in citrus though I do have 30 + varieties. 2) Most experts will tell you that river rock in the bottom of the pot is not a wise choice - all to do with lack of drainage and raising the water retention level inside the planter. I would not have removed much, if any, of the soil that was in the original nursery pot AND I would have gone to the next pot size up only if required. For example 1 gallon to a 1.5 to 2 gallon at the most. What likely has happened here is the feeder roots are not taking up water and your lemon tree is starving. I would remove the rocks and really mud up your mixture and ensure that the root ball is once again making good contact with the soil. Things should turn around. Those are my thoughts.. Greg BTW, I prefer Lisbon lemons over the Eureka. I find the Eureka a bit finicky for container growing.
Greg, thanks for the reply. If the roots are unable to take water, I could certainly see that being a problem. However, do you think it would be this symptomatic after only one day? Also I put in the river rocks to acually help in drainage. They are pretty big and the water passes between them without a hitch. I did this because they are indoor with a drip tray, and while I try and empty the tray after every watering, sometimes there is still some that drains out later. I figure in the event there is water in the tray, the rocks will create a type of suspension that would prevent the water from being wicked back up by the soil. This is all a product of my own imagination though, sounds good in theory anyway!
Greg is correct. Putting items such as rocks or coarse gravel in the bottom of a container actually decreases drainage and does harm to your tree. The reason being the addition of rocks raises the perched water table higher up into the container, thus greatly limiting the area for good root growth. Your tree is showing stress, due to some manner of root damage that was caused during transplanting. There is no need to completely remove all of the medium from the root ball. 90% of water uptake by a citrus tree, comes from the weakly developed root hairs growing on the last 1 to 1-1/2 inches of the feeder roots. . The older woody roots in the middle of the root ball provide very little uptake of water or nutrients to the tree. Therefore, removing all of the growth medium is a waste of time, and could be easily detrimental to the tree because of the higher damage risk. There is no need to transplant a citrus tree, until the root system has filled all the growth medium in its present container. Transplanting is always done with due caution. Good luck to your tree. - Millet
Guess I'll just have to hope it recovers. I'll just try again I suppose if this one doesn't make it. Next time I wont "wash out" all the dirt, maybe just remove the large clumps on the outside. For the record though, I was very gentle and I really don't think I damaged the roots (at least I know I didn't break them or pull them apart, I guess just being exposed to the air could be damage enough?) I'm still unsure what I want to do about the rocks. The container is still plenty big for the size of the tree, even with the reduction in volume due to the rocks. I guess I still don't see how they could actually decrease drainage. I could certainly understand with a sand or gravel could create a type of mud that could slow the flow of water, but these are actually pretty large. The spaces between them are probably larger than the holes in the bottom of the pot itself. I'm just trying to figure out a solution that will prevent the tree from stewing in the drip tray with water that has drained through. Eliminating the drip tray is not an option, because I am unable to water it outside. Thanks again for the feedback, one of these days I'll get it right.
Put the rocks under your container. Then you will do what you are wanting to do and not reduce the growth area in your container.
Thanks for the link. Some references in Dr. Chalker's work would certainly be nice. One would think, coming from the university, that would be a no brainer. Anyway, I can certainly understand with sand, gravel, pebbles, broken glass, and others like it could in fact create a seal at the bottom as the individual particles settle into one another. However, with somewhat large rocks, I'm just not buying it. Does anyone have a link of someone who may have actually tested this? "Research from 100 years ago" doesn't really do me any good because I don't know specifically what materials they tested with. Better yet, anyone know any 6th graders looking for a science fair project? :) BTW the tree seems to be slowly recovering. If it does die though, I'll test the rocks myself!
It is your tree, cultivate the tree any way you wish. Actually the facts are that the larger the rocks, the less the drainage. Anyway, the very best future to your tree. Take care. - Millet
I do not always agree with some aspects of the myth articles but as a group they are all well worth reading. What may happen or seem to happen in ground does not always apply to container plants and vice versa. So to say this aspect is myth for container plants may be valid for in ground trees and vice versa as well. Even people with backgrounds in Chemistry do not always agree in what actually goes on in the soil as it is tough or sometimes impossible to duplicate or replicate microbial activity in a soil indoors in a sanitized laboratory. What we were taught as to what substitution reactions will do under controlled conditions in a lab do not always pan out when those same tests are conducted out in the field. I suggest you read up on why some indoor Orchid growers set their pots on top of small rocks, large sized gravel, inside a water collecting tray to help provide more humidity to the Orchids. I look at it as a means to aid in more oxygen movement but you can look at this rock placement method as a means to aid in helping possible perched water table issues indoors. By the way have you taken time to look at this tree closely and seen enough to perhaps project a potential insect issue you may soon endure? As a final note: I think it matters a lot as to who our source is for the Eureka Lemon. Not all of the Italian Lemons grown by a grower nursery around here, sold retail to home consumers from mass merchandiser outlets, are of Lisbon origin. The Eureka is still by far and away a better overall quality fruit than the Lisbon is around here. I am not convinced that the Lisbon does not have as many or perhaps more growing issues than the Eureka does for container grown plants. Fussiness is not always attributed to the cultivar itself but more so to the rootstock used and the growing conditions and plant maintenance we provide for the Lemon. Jim
Mr. Shep, I'll definetly look into what the orchid growers are doing. I'm not sure what to look for with the insects, did you see something in the picture that I should be concerned about? Also, one other idea I just had, how about if I got an oversized pot and then created some type of false bottom? Of course, I would need drainage holes in there just like there are in the pot now. Thoughts?
Rocks placed inside container bottoms have not panned out well for plants that have some susceptibility to root rot, water mold fungi and fungi capable of living in the soil and once liberated into the air can cause some leaf issues in Citrus. Pumice and volcanic rock has been used in some potting mixes in the past and when we lift the Lemon out of the pot we can see where most of the pumice and rock has migrated down to. Also, when we lift the plant out of the pot we can see and smell what the perched water table is doing to the heavier soil that also has filtrated down to the bottom of the can and herein is our means for generating a wet or even a dry rot in some indoor Citrus plants to become established. Millet knows the applied theory and conceptual application of CHC as well as anyone. If you read many of his posts, just use CHC as a keyword search in these forums and you should come up with a host of references to its beneficial usage for indoor grown container plants such as in the home, in a greenhouse and even for usage in an enclosed or perhaps even an open ended atrium or solarium. Yes, I did see a few white colored areas on the undersides of a leaf or two but also white areas on a stem or two in your photo. Could be I am seeing things but it could also be that your Lemon is about to have an issue rather soon if left unchecked. I did not want to comment on you washing off the roots, even gently, as my personal view is to leave the soil substrate that covers the roots alone in most cases when we can when we transplant into a larger container. I'd have left the rootball as is unless we know there are some problems with the soil when taking the tree and repotting it in CHC or another type soil medium. Some people get some benefit from gently removing or macerating off the soil from the roots but in most cases this creates more trouble later on for the roots as for one thing you stunt the roots which will limit their ability to readily absorb nutrients, in some cases imbibe water as well, until the shock of having their roots cleansed from the abject removal of soil microbes that reside on the roots recover. It takes longer for the roots to adapt to the new growing medium from doing this and Citrus is one plant that wants to adapt sooner than later and when we force the plant to take longer to adapt to our new soil or new container we risk some issues in our top growth that may take a while to clear up such as micronutrient issues that cause a webbing, chlorosis, smaller misshapen or puffy leaves or a series of white and bronze colored speckling on both the leaf faces and undersides of the leaves. What we don't fully take into consideration is that for some of us it takes three to five years for some Citrus to adapt to their new soil or new container - much like me taking a purchased five gallon and bring it home and immediately put it in a fifteen gallon and then see some nutrient issues quickly develop that were not seen in the plant when it was first purchased. I am seeing more Magnesium and Zinc related issues, as examples, in several of this years plants from one grower after I've "bumped" those plants up to larger containers than I did see from plants from the same grower the two years previous using my same hand mixed concoction of a potting soil medium for outdoor grown container plants. Jim
Jim, thank you very much. I'm convinced now that my rocks are definetly doing more harm than good. Now the question is, how long should I wait before removing them? The tree is on the mend now, it's still somewhat wilty, but on it's way to recovery. I really don't want to rock the boat right now. As for washing the roots, I can't remember where I read to do that, but clearly it was bad advice. I will not do that again. I'm starting to think that is probably what killed my last tree.
I would repot properly now, and be as careful as possible not to disturb the roots anymore than necessary. Like Jim, I do not wash roots when repotting, I try to be as careful as possible not to break any roots. I also try to use moist media (not wet) and do not water for at least a day or two--I believe that gives any roots that are damaged time to calus over and helps prevent disease.
Interesting premise. I've always followed the 'give it a drink' routine following transplant as it is often suggested. I can see your logic but wonder if keeping the root hairs moist is more beneficial to the plant.
I have had to deal with several wilting issues in the past couple of years when I receive citrus bare root from a grower in the southeast. The only way i can import them into Canada is to have them shipped bare root along with the phytosanitary Certificate. Given some time, the wilting issue has almost always cleared up. As I mentioned in the second post, mud up the soil mix with warm water and ensure the rootball is well encased in the mud. One 10 degree tangerine did not like the pot at all and didn't turn around until I planted it in the ground. I agree with the experts... replant asap. Be gentle :) Greg
When I transplant a tree, I always give the tree a very good watering upon completion., but withhold the fertilizer for a week or so. I almost never see any wilting or transplant stress, but like everyone, every now and then a tree will show a bit of stress. However, it is usually gone in a couple days. If how a person transplants, and it works well for them, then I would not do anything different. The main thing is transplant the tree with caution and respect. - Millet
Millet, what are your thoughts about adding bone meal and a few shakes of Epsom salts to the transplant medium? (for container citrus) G.
I should have also mentioned that I leave them in the shade for the first day or 2 after repotting. I believe the moist media prevents any exposed root hairs from drying too much. Most of the root hairs are buried in components of the media like between layers of bark ect.--that is why it is important to be a gentle as possible when repotting. Most root hairs will break off instead of pulling out of the pieces of media. We have a very humid environment here, so that may help as well. This is standard proceedure for transplanting cactus and where I began using it. If you water right after transplanting a cactus, you have a much greater chance of getting root rot. As they say, do what works for you if you have a method that works, but it might be worth a try for others.
Greg, bone meal is a mixture of crushed and coarsely ground bones that is used as an organic fertilizer. As a slow-release fertilizer, bone meal is primarily used as a source of phosphorus. I have never used bone meal with citrus, nor have ever seen bone meal recommended for use on citrus. Of the 3 primary elements NPK phosphorus is the least required element. I suppose it would not hurt, but there are better sources of phosphorus. Epsom salts, I would only apply in solution, and as one of the ingredients in the course of regular fertilizing. BTW, I noted in another post that you now have approximately 30 citrus varieties, and in Canada. Very nice. - Millet
I just repotted the tree. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. The soil sure did smell funny when I took it out. It also had a lot of what appeared to be a lot of small worms living in the soil. I would imagine they are likely harmelss? There sure were a lot of them. P.S. Millet, I soaked fresh CHC in an epsom salt solution (10 gal of water and 2 cups salt). I saw in another post you also recommended calcium nitrate. I couldn't manage to find that anywhere, so I didn't add that. What is its purpose? (Just wondering if it would be worth trying harder to locate it next time). Thanks for your help everyone. I think you saved my tree.
The addition of Epsom Salts and Calcium nitrate is to remove unwanted elements from the CHC by a process called cation exchange, that are not completely removed through leaching. For 10-gallons of water you should have added about 1/2 ounce of Epsom Salts. If you had used Calcium Nitrate, the application rate would have been the same. Cation exchange replaces the unwanted elements by the ions Ca++ and Mg++, both of which are beneficial and used by the tree. - Millet
