These information can be retrieve through responsas from 1835-1892 about the big dilemma of etrogey Corfu ( Greece), it will be extremely long, laborious and complex and of no interest of other reader ( as I was already asked not to elaborate on anthropology and cultural subjects in this forum) ... but to be short: There are no etrog that has a pedigree of nongrafted from immemorial times only from a few generations.( of course, only one responsa made the assumption ( taharat hamikva yochiach : zeria) that a branch of a grafted is itself grafted...and every one after him condemn the process but before him none were making the 2nd generation after transplanting, to be considered as a grafted only when the etrog branch was on the scion of the other tree ( orangia mare, troyer, poncirus trifolia, dragon ,....limonish, portugal, moransta)-ref: limud zechut R. Eliazar Alpandary. REF: most of them are in Rabbinical Hebrew ( not modern and a lot of abbreviations), -the Ferrari (1356) are in Latin, and the statement of sale and buy from Greece are in low-German in hebrew transliteration ( jargon). -peher hador ch' beit, igeret 131. -oraat heter 1875 -divrey chachamim 1891 -divrey miluyim -orot chaim -chelkat yohav -beit meir -zichron melech -yalkut P"HH Yuda Noach & A A Barnow -milchemet H' b'amalek t"rnb on the Corfu Holocaust. -nin neeman -mizimerat haaretz -Ferrari Hesperides 1656. -life of L. Moses Montefiore ( biography). the list is much longer but if you go through this one you'll be all right
Quote: Originally Posted by de bon chemin Quote: Originally Posted by aron I'm from New york. I was researching the ritual laws of esrog and came across this thing of esrogim from Cuba. i had never heard of Cuban esrogim and was fascinated to see that you knew about it. i have spoken to many people and very few had even heard about them. and nobody had any real information about them until i read your post from a year ago. i am only a little bit interested in grafted esrogim but very interested in those from Cuba. i do not have any of the books you mention. is there anything in English. i do read Hebrew but this type of stuff is easier for me in English. good weekend Aaron Do you have a copy of the Citrus Industry Volume I. If not here is a link to chapters in Volumes I, II and V. Check out chapter 3 and 4 in Volume I for information about Ethrog. The rest it's very easy where you had a Jewish communauty and the weather was for it ....you had etrogim check this, it will help http://lib.ucr.edu/agnic/webber/ as for the purpose of your interest....I didn't catch it . The message seems personal but I think that it would be interesting for the forum...you may delete the personal stuff and post these messages in the thread for everyone to see, of course to your discretion as it is your choice to do so. Eric De Bon Chemin i don't mind putting on the forum, i just don't know how. if you want to put it, it is fine with me. Aaron
dear aaron. here is a link that mention also the citron of cuba, as to be very similar to the one of Diamante which is generaly (i dont take responsibility for that) called "yaneve". the address is wishing you all the best, esrog re
Dear Aaron, rLS Indeed, this link calls the Cuban Citron: Earle...as we marked it as the Cuban Shaddok. Is the Sicilian sweet, as the Yanaver/Diamante/Calabro is bitter/amaretto (agrume)? and the Shaddok is ..... I never taste the Sicilian or the Shaddok, if someone had, let us know. Google these: Le cédrat méditerranéen et le cédrat de Corse. de part l'Auteur : R. Huet (presented as Hybrid as well a lot others too...) CHAPTER 4 Horticultural Varieties of Citrus BY ROBERT WILLARD HODGSON Bonne fin de journee et de semaine, Eric-Jehu de Bon Chemin
In the first page trancelated in english. maybe do you know what this means. "The citron decorates the Arab gardens. A variety meets only in the gardens of Damas: the Kabaab. In Morocco, one also finds varieties typical like Me Guergueb of Berkane."
"Sweet Citron Varieties.—The only widely-grown sweet citron variety is the Corsican, which is described below. The literature does not disclose other sweet-fruited varieties of general distribution. That there are some varieties of local importance is indicated by Chapot (1950b and 1962a), who described two of Moroccan origin: Assads and M'Guergueb."
Now that my interest has been peaked in this thread I am wondering where some of you are going with this topic. I sense some areas of noncommittal, whether it is due to religious or faith reasons or for other factors I do not know about, yet for me to open up with what I have learned along the way may require some intentions stated for me to proceed further than I will here in this note. The inherent problem is that several of us are outsiders to the secular aspects of this fruit. I am not wanting to offend anyone in regards to this subject and probably will unintentionally, so my hands are tied with this subject matter until someone speaks out and tells what they really want to know here. I will say this now that there are Etrogs in the greater Los Angeles vicinity that are and have been on their own roots for several years, since the early to mid 50's that I know of and probably were around in the area before then. If you want to go into more depth into how those trees came into the Los Angeles and nearby areas and when, then you my want to contact people in the Santa Ana area which is in Orange County. The Corsica probably came to California through Florida. I believe the Assad or a form close to it came into the Southern California region from people soon after WWII. Perhaps a Temple or two can help you guys further than I will and can lend a helping hand on the Sweet Citron that has been in the Los Angeles and nearby areas in the past that may have come in years ago through Israel.. Jim
To Mr. Shepp Is the Etrog a Citrus Medica-Mallus Meddei between others or a trackable fruit with its own genetics, morpho. and taxo. differentiable of other citrus medica?? Or I think that the question, cogito nunc sum ... As for the direction of the thread, that the way the cookie crumbles, let enjoy it. Have a vonderful week end and a happy one.
To all who want to understand the discussions about esrog. It is to determine which kind of citron (citrus medica) is more likely to be considered kosher by Jews. The main discussed issue was that the esrog (etrog/ethrog etc. depends on the way of pronouncement in Hebrew which varies by origins of the writers) should be authentic, and not a hybrid with some other fruit which cannot be considered as an esrog. The believe in which esrog is more authentic or less, is also variable, and depends also in origin of what the people over there believed about or had the opportunity to get that kind of esrogim. By the time going many questions arisen: 1) Is the Yemenite more authentic because it got no pulp, and the others should be considered as hybrids with pulpy and juicy fruits like the lemon? 2) Are the Yemenite and Moroccan more authentic because of there is no grafting practiced there for the esrog, and maybe ban the Diamante because grafting is widely practiced over there for years (centuries?) and even the non-grafted ones are questioned for being descendents of hybrids, which may not be considerd better then their parents (except for a few opinions like the beth Efraim, de bon chemin etc.)? 3) Or maybe should we say that because the Diamante was used for centuries (a fact that could be discussed, it is built on a theory that it was called "yanove - genoa" because of distribution by there) it should be the only one considered authentic, not the Yemenite which is quite different by being pulpless, and not the Moroccan by being partially seedless? 4) Looking for the reasons why and how the Yemenite got pulpless (if it wasn't the authentic one) and how the Moroccan got partially seedless, and if something could be done to correct them without out cross pollination, which would make them worse. 5) Investigating the effects of grafting and breeding and how they could affect the progeny and hybridization. 6) Looking for linkage. Let's ask if the Greek citron growing in Naxos is it native to Greece? Or should we rather look for one in Crete, Parga or Corfu? 7) From were are the citron growing today in Israel originating. Are some of them from Corfu? Yes. Which are they? Which are endemic to Israel? Which were never grafted? 8) And so on – is the Yemenite native to India? The Moroccan to Corsica? No problem. But was grafting practiced in that regions at that times? For some those questions are very interesting, especially for religious Jews. But the scientific experts are very helpful in such discussions and could help them getting into planting citrons under rabbinical supervision. Thanks for all joining the discussions and sharing their knowledge. All the best. Esrog Research
Even descendant plants that have been propagated for many years can show us physical characteristics that may or can differ from the parent plant grown in the same area. We can also see elements of the plants being different by where they are grown such as bring in a plant from Israel and grow it here in the San Joaquin Valley and we might see some slight changes in the plant over time in the plant grown here. Such as a difference in rind color that may not be seen in Israel. Rind color can be impacted by coolness at or during the time or ripening as an example. We can also influence the amount of seeds a fruit will have by our growing culture on several of the Citrus. One way is to limit the activity of honeybee pollination for some Citrus (some Mandarins for example will produce more seed per segment if the trees were bee pollinated), another is leave some plants in a solitary setting whereby no other foreign pollen can contaminate the host tree or in some cases have all of the trees cross pollinated by another like tree (tree that is the same). The probability that Etrogs that came from Israel that were brought into the US had not been subjected to foreign pollen from another Citrus tree is more likely to be close to nill in a landscape, although the possibility exists that some backyard trees may not have been grown anywhere near another form of Citrus such as a Lemon or an Orange. Should an Etrog have been grown near or close by to another Citrus form tree, then to have a pure line Etrog for duplication purposes would force the seed to have to be discarded. Rooting cuttings, layering or air layering or today through cellular propagation such as tissue culture of the parent plant would be the only way to ensure "pureness" in the plant. Even then the parent plant can be impacted by where it is grown or has been grown for a number of years that may show some changes we can see in the progeny. I believe the Diamante has two selected forms that came about from the original plant that were selected out and named here in California and it is likely that both forms arose from seed. I also believe that over time an Etrog that was grown in Haifa may not look quite the same as the same tree might grown in Tel Aviv, even if both plants came from the same source in the Holy Land. I've seen it happen in a few other plants and a lot of the time it is due to the trees culture, how it was grown differently from the other tree. That is the basis why a plant grown in Holland may not look the same as the same exact plant is when grown here or a Maple grown on its own roots for many years in Japan can look different than the same Maple grown for many years here on its own roots can look like. I believe the Etrog and Esrog to be different from each other. I also feel these two plants are Citrons but can be separated from most of the Citrons due to the molded ribbing we can see and feel on the outside of the fruit. I believe the Diamante can in some cases also can have the appearance of the smoothed over ribs much like an Esrog but the ribs are not molded which yields an ever so slight feel of the ribbing being present but they are not as distinct as the Esrog. I agree that the Etrog has less albedo inside the fruit than most Citrons. Much like how I can tell an old Shaddock which I learned to be Citrus maxima and was called a Pomelo from the Citrus grandis which is now called a Pummelo. The old Pomelo plant may have been a hybrid but we do not know for sure whereas the Pummelos are all considered hybrids in some way. Again for the latter we are not sure but I am going by a consensus opinion of the Pummelos. The rabbinical philosophy is highly important for the Etrog as we need to know what they base their reasoning on to give a fruit or tree kosher status other than the presence of the molded ribs, the uniformity of rind color without any discoloration, the shape of the nipple on the apical end in some cases and whether the fruit came from a tree on its own roots. Surely through time these plants have changed a little and I believe that has been taken into account. It will be rather tough now to source back a plant or a line of plants and determine it was the original source plant when we factor in that the plants that came into Israel may have come from somewhere else such as Palestine and Persia. Therein is the part of the problem as through trade these plants may have originated in Corsica or Italy and we just have no way of knowing. Personally, I would not worry too much about that. Link and source the plants back to Israel and the Holy Land and you will have your basis to think of the Etrog as being in the Citron family but may also have been its own nature caused hybrid through a series of gene mutations which allows for the Etrog to be different in rind color, the amount of albedo inside the fruit and the size, shape of the fruit and the molded ribbing that gives the Etrog different physical characteristics than the other known Citrons at the present time. That is not to say that the Diamante cannot have come from an Etrog as we do not know much about these plants and their origins as much of the basis the intellectual community go on is where the tree was found, which does not mean that the tree was endemic to that particular location or region. Jim
Thank you Mr. Shep. The rabbinical position is based more or less as to get evidence for pure, non-grafted, and non-hybridized lines. An ancient rabbinical opinion (about 300 years ago) which was always considered and discussed, was to use differentials (like those described in this forum by De Bon Chemin) to determine if a citron (which is called in Hebrew: Esrog/Etrog/Ethrog) was grafted or not. I actually found a hybrid growing in Greece which has all of those differentials, also a picture from Vilkamer where they are also found. The last is said to be growing in Genoa, Italy where the citrons for religious use were grown in that time, and for which this differentials were most probably given to ensure that the Jewish costumer gets a real Esrog/Citron and not a hybrid. The main question is now how those changes occurred, since grafting is now I think proven not to change the progeny? A fact which is accepted also by many rabbinical authorities. I raised an opinion that grafting in the ancient was of been practiced not for cold hardiness or resistance purposes, since the grafting methods and recommended rootstock were not established in that time, nor was the effect of pollination, out-cross-pollination and so on. Also I would say, and I have rabbinical prove for this, that in that time it wasn't done on a commercial matter, only in home gardens as for sport and adventure. For all that reasons, and to answer the above and some more questions I would assume that grafting was than practiced by leaving the rootstock branches on the tree, in that way it wasn't practical for commercial use, and it resulted in changes to the progeny. De Bon Chemin seems to have studied very well the differentials between the citron and the lemon, and his work which will be appreciated by us, will lead to the establishment of a pure line cultivar, which will with rabbinical guidance, be accepted by the Jewish publicum. He will be able to name his cultivar however he wishes. As I wrote, people can call their plantations as they wish, since there is no known methods to enforce a name for a fruit. However, if one wants to sell them for Jewish people, he most get a "Hechsher"- certification from a qualified rabbi. In fact the most popular kosher citrons are not called with the name "esrog" or similar in Latin. Also, it makes no difference for the citron – in rabbinical point of view – if it originates from Israel or not. In fact many orthodox Jews refrain from using any citron from Israel, since grafting and breeding were practiced there in large. The main discussion on the citrons are if they were traditionally used in some place, to insure an opinion from late rabbinical sources that it is to be called citron or esrog, and not a hybrid. The discussions about linkage are for the same purposes. The main traditional lines are those discussed in the latest letter of mine, and the questions among them are also, I think, clear. However those questions which are not only concerning me, but the entire Jewish community as well, might get some answers with the help of a qualified scientist like you. I will therefore provide you any information required in the way to get answers on those questions. Thank You Esrog Research
Etrogs were around in some locales in the greater Los Angeles area before the 50's and all the trees that I once knew of, by the select individuals that had them, were on their own roots. Even all through the 50's virtually all Citrus sold and grown in California came about from rooted cuttings. There were some trials in which a Lemon was budded onto a Citrange and then rooted cuttings were made from wood from that put together plant and later grown on and sold. This process is how some of the first semi-dwarf forms came about for resale to commercial growers and to home gardeners. The dilemma at that time was that the two parent put together plants did not live long but the budded plant served as the prototype plant for nurseries to sell rooted cuttings to people that had some dwarfing characteristics, that came about from the Citrange rootstock parent. Also, this union incorporated into the Lemons genome more cold resistance, thus our Lemon in its first year of transplanting from the Los Angeles area to the San Joaquin Valley was able to endure temperatures down to 6 degrees when all other Meyer Lemons on their own roots probably would have perished. To make comment that the “recessive” rootstock does not and cannot affect the genetic makeup of the more dominant scion plant is not true. About one out of 25 seedlings raised from fruit from our Meyer Lemon tree on its own roots will yield seedling progeny with trifoliate leaves. The proof that the genes from the rootstock have become intermixed into the dominant scion's genome can be seen on occasion in the seedlings raised from seed. This is why one of us has made the comment that a store bought fruit from a grafted plant will not yield true to type seedlings in another Citrus forum. The seedlings will in most cases look similar to the parent plant but a small percentage of the seedlings can also look like the rootstock parent. I have an old budded Murcott Mandarin on Carrizo rootstock that has yielded about 2% of its seedlings from the seed gathered from the fruit that will show the trifoliate characteristics in the leaves of the seedlings. Most all of those seedlings in fact produce a Mandarin looking fruit and some of these plants also will produce a Navel in the basal end of the fruit on occasion, which pretty well tells us which parent was the seed bearing parent for the Carrizo rootstock. Preliminary grafting on Citrus in the US came about years later but budding Citrus onto a rootstock can be traced back to the 30's and was done mostly by experimental stations. It was nearer the 70's that selected rootstocks really came about when rough Lemon and two of the Swingle trifoliate Citranges were used as rootstocks by grower nurseries. I seriously doubt that Citrus have been propagated by grafting or budding for very long in Israel and certainly not before trees were beginning to be put together here and in Florida as well. Jim
We do know that Greecs and Romans were doing a special (very strange) grafting in order to obtain Chimeras and Bizarria ( much earlier than the Italian ones, in the XIII CA) has reported n their early Mythology. But the modern breeders reject the assumption that rootstock has any influence in genetic heritage of the scion, only in intersect "traits" . I received a long article, from this forum in reference to the subject...but it is still very nebulous to me. again thank you
No, for many years the Fruit Tree breeders with their trees on Nemaguard and Nemared and even Titan (Almond) rootstock will attest, by the number of their seedlings produced from their budded and grafted trees that a significant number of the seedlings raised from seed will be more like the rootstock parent in their fruiting characteristics. The concept still holds true today when seed gathered from a Peach grafted onto water Peach rootstock will yield in more cases than not a seedling Peach that is closer to looking like the varietal Peach parent but will yield fruit more like the water Peach. This has been standard applied theory and practice in Fruit Tree breeding for many years. The number of Citrus looking like the rootstock parent is a smaller percentage than in Fruit Trees but the number of seedling rootstock that will appear like and yield fruit like the rootstock parent is seen, usually are discarded by today's method of selection if people will let it and most people today do not let it get that far but nonetheless the same rootstock appearing progeny do show up often enough to give the probability of us seeing it happening significance. To a plant breeder to give something significance means it will happen. We'll see it in other words. We have to qualify that grafting in the olden days was stem grafting on a parent line tree on its own roots. That is not the same process of grafting a scion onto a rootstock parent and making the newly put together plant a whole (top growth only) duplication of the scion wood parent. Whereas a stem graft on a branch leaves the parent tree almost whole except where the stem grafts have been incorporated into the tree. The areas of the stem grafted branch from below the grafted area along the way to the base of the branch is still that of the parent tree. Whole branches to be a different variety than the parent tree were budded to become a different variety long before the trees were whole branch grafted to yield the prototype 2 n 1 and 3 n 1 variety trees. Even still this is asexual propagation of which seed from the fruit obtained from the stem grafted area will still produce a number of seedlings that are more like the parent plant than they are the like stem scion wood parent for sexual breeding purposes and for further selection. Our proof lies in the number of offspring that are more like the parent tree. It is because there will be a number of seedling offspring that are not like the chimera is why people today almost automatically will take wood from the chimera and graft it onto a seedling rootstock and not spend lots of time dealing with the seedlings. When in the olden days people would take seed from the fruit from the chimera and grow the seedlings on and select out the seedlings that showed signs of being like the chimera and discarding all of their other seedlings along the way that looked like the parent tree. Some advanced people would save the discarded seedlings for later use as a rootstock. To those of us that have done it we can certify that many more seedlings are discarded before we end up with the chimera like plants that will hold true when grown on to become a plant on its own roots and then yield seedlings that are true to the original chimera. Even still there will be a small percentage of seedlings grown on that will not show the characteristics of the original chimera even after several years of selection. In some cases in the past the seed from the sectional chimera fruit were sterile to start with. Some never did yield viable seed, thus we are more likely to see wood propagated to preserve the chimera in more recent years. In the olden days a chimera (branch sport) could be influenced to come about just due to a stem graft incompatibility with the host tree branch. In some Citrus the abnormal growth can live up to seven years and not have the branch die on us which gives us plenty of time to select fruit from wood emanating from the graft incompatibility induced chimera and grow the seed from the fruit on from there and select out the newly created Blood Orange or whatever other Citrus over time as was done using this same method of selection in years past. Jim
Thank you very much Mr. Shep. - would you please send me the link your previous discussion about graft hybrids? To the authors. - Wouldn't it be helpful to combine all Threads discussing etrog, in one?
I am not referencing a link. If I was paraphrasing a written document or basing my comments solely on published material that could be found online I would have included it. What I've told is hands on applied knowledge of Citrus and other Fruit trees, learned and applied theory and personal accounts that not just anyone knows about or had access to. Sometime read Vol. II of the Citrus Industry to get some more background. An online link to that ahead of its time, collaborative work is listed below. VOLUME II. ANATOMY, PHYSIOLOGY, GENETICS, AND REPRODUCTION Not all of the volumes of these great works on Citrus are online. The Vol. IV and Vol. V books can be purchased through this link below. Note: cookies have to be enabled in your browser settings to have access to the catalog. ANR Catalog - University of California Actually, this forum format has made it real easy to link to most any discussion on Etrogs just by a keyword search query. I am hoping at some time that a commercial Esrog grower in the same County as our production Citrus are grown, whom contacted me through the UBC forum via a private message, will chime in at some point in time and provide some insight of what he had to go through just to market his fruit but that is his choice to tell or not. Jim
aron or de bon chemin, can you direct me to a source on Panama esrogim having been disqualified by the rabbis (as being grafted)? Thank you very much.
i do not have any refrences right now. an article i recently read, i think by ari zivotafsky in the jewish observer (probably september), might mention something about it.
I don't know about the Panama C. Medica in particular. You could check with the Botanic Garden in Panama city But, the "Espagniola Islands" had many C. Medica. Some of them from Cuba and Porto-Rico, these were used during the WWII, Haiti has one, S. Domingo too.( called the Earl but there is argument in ref. to that). The Ancians ignored the Male-Female ( etamine-pollen and pistil-ovum) relation to get a fruit and by analogy to zoological hybridation mixed the the fiber of branches of two plants, most of the time with no compatibility between the two plants . The Grafting in an Bizzaria or Shimera- was made by the union or inclusion of fiber of one plant to the other. The "united" branch was giving ( after many tries) an sporty branch that gave fruits with 2 phenotypes (but with 2 differents genotypes too), as no true hybridation was made. Imagination helping, they developed many other ways, suctions and union from roots to roots, branch to branch unions, trunc to trunc...some of these grafting are still in use in our days
Thank you, Bon Chemin. I was referring to this quote from last year: "some places were disquilify by the rabbis through the centuries: corfue,rodhes,sardenia,corsico, panama,haiti." Are there any additional sources for this (particularly regarding Panama) of which you are aware? Also, any perspective on the graft/non-grafted status of the Cuban variety that was discussed previously? Aron, did you ever investigate the Cuban variety further? I have a major question regarding this. Bon Chemin, you referred to this citron as either "Earle" or a "Cuban Shaddock". According to the book "CRC Handbook of Alternative Cash Crops" by James A. Duke, the Earle "closely resembles the Diamante [Yanover]", while the Cuban Shaddock is a "fruit closely resembling the citron". In other words, the Cuban Shaddock is not a citron or etrog (not Citrus Medica), so this is an important distinction. An "Earle" would make it among the most desirable of Etrogim (akin to Diamante), whereas a "Cuban Shaddock" would render it unfit for ritual use (assuming Duke is correct and this is NOT Citrus Medica). Finally, Bon Chemin, when you speak of "these graftings" that "are still is use today" what location are you referring to? The purpose of my asking these questions is that I am trying to map out what etrogim in the Americas do not have a tradition/pedigree of being grafted. If they are not grafted (and are botanically Citrus Medica L.), it may provide an economic boost to these countries, such as Cuba and Panama if the fruit can be exported for ritual use.
Ii am sorry it has taken me this long to respond, i was having computer troubles. I do not know much about the South American esrogim. In fact I first came to this site looking to investigate the matter. Aside from what I read here and what I heard from one old timer who remembered using Cuban esrogim during WWII I know nothing more. However regarding your main question, using South American esrogim for the holiday. Given todays enviroment, the major users, the tri-state area, are very wary of where their esrogim come from. Many won't use Moroccan, Yannover, Yemminite or even Israeli becuase their lineage is not good enough. (What I mean is that some reject one variety and others a different variety. If they rejected all the above varieties they wouldn't be able to use any esrog.) I doubt they would consider a newly indrotuced variety. I say this from a practical prespective, from a halachic perspective a clear tration of CONSTANT use is required. (See Mishna Berrurah 648:32- offhand I think that is the correct source.) S American esrogim do not have that.
Thanks for the input. The only thing that may suggest otherwise is that there was a grower in California who decided to grow esrogim for ritual use -- grower named John Kirkpatrick (San Joaquin Valley) who grew them on behalf of Yisroel Weinberger of NY -- and apparently they were able to be sold despite lack of tradition of constant use. (See link below for an article about the crop being ruined one year due to a freeze -- may have to cut and paste): http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0.../edition_id/233/format/html/displaystory.html Nevertheless, thanks for your input. It seems this issue needs to be investigated further.
Just to clarify from my previous post, it seems (is implied from the article) that these California esrogim were halachically accepted, which is why they were sold....So I guess my real question is: If the California would be accepted with no tradition of constant use, would Panama, for example, be different?
The Citrons in Californis are apparently imported from certified places, under rabbinical supervision.
