I have two maples in opposite sides of my garden that reseed often. One is a red upright Japanese Maple that is at least 25 years old that I think might be Acer palmatum rubrum. The other is a Vine maple they probably transplanted from the woods in the back of the property and it is old looking too. Under the Vine maple is a seedling that looks like it might be a cross between the two. It had red leaves in the spring that have mostly faded to dark green. The leaves are not as deeply cut and more of a rouded shape than the Japanese maple but not like Vine maple either. Has anyone heard of them crossing before? Would it be an improvement on either tree? Are Vine maples less susceptible to diseases than Japanese maples so that that might be an improvement? I suspect I have verticillium wilt in my yard because the Japanese maple has some branch die back at times and because of other problems I've had but I have never tested for it.
You may have a cross. Some of the new cultivars are crosses between Acer palmatum and shirasawanum. Vine maple is closely related to both of those maples. The great thing is that you never know what you will get. Grow it out and see what happens. Dale
Thank you, I will watch it carefully. By asking around I did find out that Acer palmatum 'Herbsfeuer' is also a cross with a vine maple. This seedling is a little different because it has red in the leaves. I just hope it isn't a pure Japanese maple that somehow got to that part of the yard. The leaf seems rounder, more like a Vine maple, but it is a little hard to tell because maple leaves do change some depending on age and growing conditions.
Keep in mind that when you read that one maple is a hybrid between two species, thereby what is called an interspecific hybrid, you are reading the assumptions of those that have viewed the characteristics of the plant and have "assumed" it is a hybrid. For example, because Acer palmatum 'Trompenberg' was grown in proximity to Acer shirasawanum 'Palmatifolium' and a resulting seedling germinates in the vacinity looking somewhat like a red 'Palmatafolium' says nothing about the actuality of a hybridization occurring. The same stands with 'Herbsfeuer', a green palmatum grown in vacinity to a vine maple does not mean a hybridization occurred. There is a large movement now to name new varieities and reclassify old ones (Green Trompenberg from palmatum to shirasawanum to name one). For example Acer x Sensu and Acer x Johin which are supposed palmatum crosses with shirasawanum but really the trees looks as much palmatum as they do shiraswanum with even some japonicum traits. So who is to say they are hybrids when we may be seeing the expression of less common genetic traits within a given species. So with that said, I suspect it is far more likely that you have a circinatum seedling expressing characteristics you are not used to seeing from normal seedlings. Some circinatum leaves will emerge reddish in color but will quickly change to green. This has been a dead discussion in the past, but should the people out there that can tell us the parentage of some of these new hybrids and how they were derived wish to tell us-- they would be giving a great deal of validity idea that a certain plant might be a hybrid. To say that becasue the plants were grown in close proximity and to have selected an openly pollinated seedling tells nothing scientific about the matter. It seems there is little agreement about what is palmatum vs. shirasawanum vs. japnonicum, so how are we supposed to identify a hybrid? I am all for the idea of hybridizing maples--heck a truly red shirasawanum would be great. But so far, we have not seen that. Even the highly acclaimed A.s. Red Dawn, or maybe we should call it Acer x Red Dawn, will not hold its red color and looks more palmautum than shirasawanum on most days. Acer x Johin also quickly fades to green and seems very palmatum, maybe even japonicum in its traits. Best regards, Michael
Yes, classifying plants that can have such similar traits among species by morphology is difficult. I don't follow maple research outside of this forum; I wonder if anyone is doing any genetic sequencing of Acer spp. for classification. Dee, the discussion in this thread about the variation in leaf form on A. circinatum illustrates the variability of leaf forms, even on the same plant at different times.
Thank you for all the information. It doesn't look all that much like a Vine maple. I think it is more likely a red Japanese maple seed got over there somehow, or that it is an inter specific hybrid. Even if it is a hybrid, unless it is some kind of improvement it may not be very important. I don't believe in introducing new varieties unless they are a definite improvement. I will just have to grow it on and see. I do know about how maple leaves can change appearances. The suckers off the base of my old vine maple look like the classic vine maple shape, but the leaves on the upper older branches look a lot like a Japanese maple. I work at a retail nursery, and you should see the looks of disbelief I get as I try to explain that the Japanese maple is not changing it's variety but the leaves are just different because of growing conditions! Because we live in a rural area, I know the maples around here, one is a weeping red Japanese that I don't think has ever flowered ( a neighbor's tree) so the parents must be my red Japanese maple, a Vine maple, or a big leaf maple. So at least I can be fairly sure of it's parentage.
I wonder if anyone is doing any genetic sequencing of Acer spp. for classification. I have read somewhere (but I can't find the reference) that the changing of 'Yasemin' from A. palmatum to A. shirasawanum was the result of genetic sequencing done in Holland. This is also the case in the genus Hydrangea (and here I have the references at hand) where a number of cultivars have changed species after genetic sequencing (again in Holland) Gomero
Hi Gomero, One would imagine a large database of information to be needed to make such a determination about Yasemin. If that was the case, we could surmise that information and sequencing is being done for many other maples also. Maybe someone in the UBC knows? Or is interested in telling us or providing a reference? MJH
