Couple of maple questions please.

Can anyone tell me what kind of maple leaves these are? I'm assuming that they are indeed maples, but I could always be incorrect. Both from the same tree. The only time I can get a photo with sun shining on them is toward the end of the day, other than that they are shaded all day long.


Second question, I believe this is a Vine Maple. It looks as though the top of the tree got broken off several years ago (not shown in the photo here) and I wonder if it might be OK to cut the main trunk down and just leave the newer shoots coming up from the bottom. I cannot see any new growth at all further up the tree. I will get a better photo of the broken top tomorrow, just wasn't thinking enough this evening.

 

Sorry...a better photo of the maple.

 

Good morning Keith this does look like Acer circinatum Vine maple. And yes it can be cut back to the new lower shoots, but I would leave it a little longer as they are prone to heavy bleeding in Spring. The end of June onwards is best IMO.
D

 

Thanks D. I will get some better photos later today (it's past midnight here now) so you can see more clearly what I'm talking about.

 

Understood Keith, goodnight.

 

It is very difficult to get at this vine maple, as I need a cane to get around with, and this is very rough and steep ground. However, I managed to get down the bank and slowly make my way to the tree in question. Certainly very different when I got up close and personal if you will.

Firstly, I spotted this little seedling about 10 yards away from the taller tree. Could this also be a vine maple?



It also appears to me that there might be another one, maybe about 8 feet or so tall, and this is a close up of the leaves. Somewhat difficult to get at due to the extremely rough terrain.



Then we arrive at the piece de resistance, as it were. Very different looking when you get right up close to it.

The main tree is broken off about 20' or so up in the air. It is a very jagged break and all but impossible to get a photo of. The bottom of the main trunk, which I thought was essentially dead, is in fact very much alive. The maple is right on the edge of the neighbours' untouched west lot, sitting about on our adjoining property lines. I'm not sure how well this will show up, but large portions of the bark at the bottom of the tree appear to have come loose and that appears to have been some sort of mechanical damage, possibly by an excavator or something similar. No, I haven't had our machine anywhere near that tree.



I originally thought that there was no current growth except right at the base of the tree, but this is far from being right. This photo (first one) was taken from behind the tree from where we can see it, in other words on the forest side. The other two are looking up the tree, and there are growing branches around 9 or 10 feet from the ground. beyond that, there doesn't seem to be any new growth at all.



At the base of the tree, there are lots of tiny new shoots coming up and, quite frankly, it's a real mess. But at least it's still alive.



These last photos are some that I shot of the foliage with the sunlight shining through. That part was quite beautiful in person, as it were.



So the question is, how would I be able to propagate this tree elsewhere? There may be more than one seedling growing, although it appeared that all those new shoots at the base of the tree might be attached to the tree itself. It's a very steep slope there and the ground is extremely rough. Someone with far better athletic abilities than I would be needed to get any work done with this tree. And that may be possible in the next week or so.

Thank you for any help or opinions that you may have.

 

Good morning or good night Keith, first of all they are Vine maple seedlings you are looking at. Secondly that is one of the best ways to propagate these, ie collect and pot them up in a soil mix that is the same as where you found them, (nature knows best ).
Obviously you can collect seed in a few months that has dropped from the tree, but why wait when you have some already started.
Just ensure you take enough soil so as not to disturb the roots. I use a knife and cut around a seedling creating a little plug, I then just pop it straight into a small pot. Always works for me.

Regarding the tree with bark damage, this may not be mechanical at all. A lot of maples are prone to this splitting and as long as it doesn't girdle the tree completely it will survive above the damage perfectly well.

Lovely sunny photos BTW.

 

Good morning D! Well, that is good news indeed.

To the best of my knowledge, the approximately 1/3 acre lot where this vine maple sits is virgin ground. The canopy is such that very little is growing down at ground level, due to the lack of direct sunlight getting through. However, this tree is right at the very edge of that heavily forested area so it gets lots of sunlight as the day progresses. And it is very difficult to get to the tree due to all the debris on the ground there. There is a massive collection of bits and pieces of broken branches, dead twigs and so forth, and of course it is very steep.

Whether or not that bark has been damaged all the way round the tree or not, I am not sure. Perhaps I will venture down there again, or wait for Jeff to show up later this coming week. I would be inclined to think that if the cambium layer had been damaged around the entire circumference of the trunk, that it wouldn't grow above that point. The only thing I did spot, was that it appears the newer growth has all happened on the east side of the tree, which would be facing to the wooded area of the lot.

I don't remember seeing any seed on the tree last year, but then I wasn't looking for that at all. But you can bet I will be later in the fall this year.

Additionally, I will see - providing I can get down to the tree again - if I can clear enough debris to get at a seedling or two. I shall let you know how I make out with that little endeavour.

 

You will make an intrepid plant hunter yet Keith. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. But carefully does it.

D

 

Only providing that the ground is level and not like where this tree is D!

 

Agreed Keith, I bet those old Victorian plant hunters had many a serious fall that we never ever heard about. But as you are on this forum, I'm sure we will hear about it from your good wife Val if you have a mishap trying to collect maple seedlings. Lol.

 

Another surprise D! It's amazing what a little observation will do, isn't it?

I went to see if I could get a photo of the top of the broken vine maple and this is what I can see before the sun gets around to this side. That won't happen for at least another 6 hours.



Making allowances for my fading memory, I think I recall seeing some leaves on the top part of the tree some 7 years ago. But since then it has been barren. I cannot see any buds or any sort of growth there now. The highest branch to show any life, starts about 10 feet from the ground. However, that isn't the good news.

Walking back up the lower driveway, I decided to carry on down to the big shed, which is supposedly a home for the excavator. But as with most such buildings, it has been filled with a variety of things not related to such a machine. I'm sure those of you with garages will know what I mean.

On the way up the driveway, I took this shot. As you can clearly see, there's a smooth rock right up against the base of the tree. Smooth rocks don't grow here, so this one must have been imported. All the local rocks are very rough and sometimes sharp. But that sapling looks like a vine maple.....I think.



Looking up, instead of down, this is what greeted my eyes.



Rounding the corner at the top of that part of the driveway and looking down again, here's what was next. That small "log" there is a 30 foot chunk of a fir that broke off in a big wind we had a few years back. I do believe there are seedlings there which are FAR easier to get at.



And once again looking up....



Looking deeper into the middle of Ron's lot, there are quite a few seedlings. But I couldn't tell what they might be. All I know is that barely month or so ago, there was no hint of greenery on the ground. If any of them turn out to be vine maples, I'm sure he won't mind if I scoop a few! My camera was zoomed out as far as that lens will go, so these are about 40 feet from where I was standing. Maybe a trip down there when I get the chance.

 

So many to choose from Keith, remember not all will take, but the success rate for Vine maples is pretty good. They are not native for your area for nothing.
The first photo is showing nothing alive above the break. It should be cut down to the new growth IMO.
Agree about the rock against the trunk, it should be removed. The damage should be only on one side, but you also don't know if any infection has got in. Only removing it will give an answer. Some on the forum might say leave the rock in situe, as it could open the wound up and create a problem. It is a 50/50 call IMO.
Regarding the garage that is meant for the car, but is loaded with everything but. Yes I fully understand where you are coming from there Keith, Lol.

D

 

I rather imagine that the rock has been there for a good number of years, so I will just let it be. I suspect that the tree will decide for itself how well it will survive that considerable weight leaning against it. I will guess the weight of that rock to be about 50 to 60 pounds, as it's fairly big.

As for removing the top of that maple, I don't know how we would get up there. A ladder would be the only way, and frankly, I wouldn't want to be the one trying that with a chainsaw in hand. Although I do have a cordless reciprocating saw that might work, but it still entails going up a ladder, which I'm definitely no longer very good at. I will see if Jeff is willing to tackle that.

 

Yes leave it Keith, not worth getting hurt. Let nature take it's course. Can often actually look better that way.
D

 

Consider it done, or not done as the case may be.

 

There's a video from "UBC Forestry" describing Vine maple (Acer circinatum) and there's a comparison (at about 1'10"") with Douglas maple (Acer glabrum) which seems to be very common in BC :



From what I read, Vine m. has orange-red leaves in Autumn, whereas Douglas m. has yellow-orange leaves. What about yours ?

It also seems Acer glabrum has more subspecies, like (the surprising : trifoliate) Acer glabrum ssp neomexicanum

 

Alain, many thanks indeed for that video. Very interesting. I don't know what colour the leaves go in the fall, although I think they were quite red, but I will be checking this year for sure. And I can further check on the leaves now that I have some solid information to go by. Thank you again! Something else for me to report back on.

 

Leaf shapes are very different. Circinatum leaves, as the name would indicate, are almost circular. Douglas maples are a subspecies/variety of Rocky Mountain maple, all varieties of which have 3 prominent lobes.

You are going gaga over Douglas maples (a. glabrum var. Douglasii), @Keith Elliott .

btw, I agree with going gaga.

 

After having watched the video, I now realize that it is a Douglas Maple - several in fact - that we have here.

Over the coming weeks and months I'm going to try and see if I can get close up photos of as many maples as possible on the north Shuswap. It's a fairly long road out to the main highway, about 40 kms from where we are. If we head east over to St. Ives, about 10 kms from here, that would give us about 50 kms of road to check out. For the most part, the road is fairly close to the lake, sometimes so close that the lowest parts of the road get flooded!

About three or four years ago we had a massive runoff from a big snowpack and a warm spring, and just down at Magna Bay, barely 5 minutes from here, the lake water was slowly inching over the lowest part of the road. There is another spot by Lee Creek where the water level almost covers the road, within just a very few inches. There are no dams holding this section of the lake back as it heads west towards Kamloops via the South Thompson River, where it joins up with the North Thompson River.

 

Another photographic sojourn this morning, which only leads to yet more questions.

There are perhaps literally hundreds of seedlings behind the excavator shop, and that is somewhere I rarely tread, no reason to go there. It is a permanently shaded area and these seedlings obviously have a happy home there.



Given that I am about the least expert person on the subject, which by now you all know, can anyone suggest if these are in any way different from one another? They are all within a few feet of each other.



And one final question (for now), yesterday I noticed that a number of the leaves have something bright red on the tips. I can't get at the higher ones, so these are all low and within close-up camera range.

 

Maple Gall Mites (Eriophyidae) Keith.

 

Thank you. So should I try to wipe them off somehow? Can't reach the higher ones, but the others I think I can get at.

 

A. circinatum (Vine Maple) here, note the round form and 9-11 lobes:



I'm no expert on A. glabrum, which is very difficult to get in EU at all, and completely missing from our collection though I think it would do well here. Still, I think there's no question that the various maples you've shown are forms of glabrum. var. douglasii seems to be more 3 lobed with more serrated margins, var. glabrum more distinctly 5. lobed. Just a word that it is always difficult to ID young seedlings, as new growth is often distorted from the final form. -E

 

It looks to me as though there is more than one variety here, but as you say difficult to ID. Maybe what I will do is to tie something around a few of the different seedlings and see how they develop over the next year or two. The very smallest one seems to be slightly different from most of the rest. That's this one.