Identification: Bihou- Pseudomonas, Verticillium or Other?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by wilsonrio, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    First of all I want to say thank you for the wealth of knowledge and brain power I see in this forum. I have the Acer palmatum 'Bihou', full sun exposure.

    Please note that I read the FAQs about Blackened tips and twigs in spring (Pseudomonas syringae) and Verticillium wilt and related problems. However I am not sure what is the root cause of the black oil tips, bacterial pathogen, sun damaged or other.

    Location:
    California, United States
    USDA zone 9
    Sunset Western Guide zone 15-16
     

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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2013
  2. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi,

    Bi hoo (or Bihou) is a pretty weak cultivar and has many bark issues, to the point that one of the best producers in Europe has given up on it. Your plant looks pretty good from what I can see in the pics, just a little tip dieback but no major problems on the main stems. I see no sign of verticillium or pseudomonas, so I'm guessing it's just late season growth that didn't ripen off.

    Full sun seems like a courageous choice, but if you get a lot of ocean haze maybe less so. If it does have leaf burn that will weaken the plant and make it more susceptible to real problems. Also sun on winter bark can cause scorching which is very visible on Bi hoo.

    -E
     
  3. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    Hi Emery,

    Thank you for your willingness to help and comments. I live in the bay area around 50 miles/80 kilometers south of San Francisco and approximately 25 miles/40 kilometers north of the ocean.

    If you are not familiar the SF bay area has microclimates, with vastly different types of weather at once.

    One challenge that I have is that every nursery in the S.F bay area has different recommendations for planting, soil mix, fertilization, etc even though I am referring to the same microclimate. Inconsistent and conflicting information is putting maples at risk and not developing to their best.

    I am not sure if the Maple Society or other organization has considered developing standards based on topography, soil analysis, weather patters, Carbon levels, etc.

    The same level of research can impact root mass density for each type, growth rate, etc. I have yet to find anyone locally focusing on the future on what is lasting and best.

    I will send my soil for detailed lab analysis to find out soil amendments if any or other are needed; based on Linda Chalker- Scott's paper my overall understanding is the ideal soils, from a fertility standpoint, are generally defined as containing no more than 5% OM (organic mater) by weight or 10% by volume. It wastes resources, both financial and natural, to add excessive amounts of OM without these baseline values. Abnormally high levels of nutrients can have negative effects on plant and soil health and any nutrients not immediately utilized by microbes or plants contribute to non-point source pollution.

    Another data point is that I acquired the maple from a certified arborist/maple seller that recommended the following:

    Planted: May 28th, 2012,
    Soil: clay

    1) SUPERthrive (vitamins-hormones)
    Frequency:
    - Planting tree or anything for the first time
    - 2 weeks after and done forever, no more future applications

    2) Foliage-Pro (plant food 9-3-6, Dyna-gro)
    Frequency: once a month
    Schedule: March, April, May, June, July, August, September
    Directions: ¼ teaspoon to each gallon of water

    Sincerely,
    Wilson
     
  4. JT1

    JT1 Contributor 10 Years

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    There is a very knowledgeable contributor from CA that may be willing to offer advice that pertains to your climate. If Jim responds, pay special attention, because he has a lifetime of experience and when he comments, I listen and take his word as gold. Sometimes I find myself reading his post a few times to let all the great information settle in..

    With that being said, here is my two cents of what works for me in my area.

    I have only owned this variety for one year (mine is about a foot shorter than your tree), but I have noticed it tries very hard to put off a lot of growth very late in the season. I kept up with cutting back this late season growth, until I left town for two weeks to visit with family. When I came back, I noticed it put off 6 new long shoots while I was gone. Life got busy, the weather went downhill, and I never got the chance to prune them off.

    Over winter those 6 shoots turned red. A month ago they turned black at the tips and it's slowly spreading down about 3 bud pairs from the tips. The rest of the tree is fine with beautiful yellow bark. So I recommend keeping on top of that late season growth.

    I plan to treat this tree like my Sango Kaku. I stopped having black tips on that tree about 4 years ago by doing the following:

    -I use no nitrogen fertilizer, with the exception of corn gluten that I put down two to three times during the first 2/3 of the growing season to prevent weeds.
    -I prune back any long leggy growth during the growing season.
    -I use 0-10-10 in late July or early August after the second push of growth (any 3rd push in my area is not sustainable through winter) I use a second application in mid-September. I find 0-10-10 helps thicken and harden off new growth to prepare the tree for winter. It also helps with the fall season root growth.
    -I spray all my Japanese Maples with lime sulfur in late winter. This is mainly to treat over winter bugs. In the rose world it is used to prevent disease. In the bonsai world, it used to preserve dead wood. I am unsure if it has any impact on disease in Japanese maples, but it could be a contributing factor to the fact that my collection is healthy and disease free.
    -Lastly, never prune these weaker varieties over winter. Only prune during the growing season. I find winter pruning is a great way to introduce bacterial infections and invite black tips.

    I refuse to comment on the above, because every time someone does, I think bells and whistles go off. Then you find yourself under attack. (right, wrong, or indifferent, I do not put much weight in economic studies)
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
  5. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    Hi JT1,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I read several of your posts, as an example I will buy the book Bonsai with Japanese maples, I concur that this book is a good source for pruning and shaping maples at all stages. I also have a small Ukigumo maple that I want to train, at the moment I have in the container placed (~10 months) at the proposed landscape area, wondering how well will turn out this spring, hoping leaves will be mostly white, I know there are several factors that can impact the outcome such as physical environment conditions and data about seed genetic material (full DNA of a mature Japanese Maple Tree). I am not sure if there is any nursery that can provide this information. This way we could make a sounding purchase like having more disease resistant trees, etc. I admire your great maple collection, thank you for sharing photos through flickr.

    In reference to detailed soil lab analysis I know this is a topic that generates opinions and as we know nothing in nature or medicine is absolute, knowing what we have is always a good reference model to start. The challenge is that most local business push inconsistently their products like different types of compost, soil mixes, etc. As an example I contacted a very reputable business 3 times and every person I spoke had a different recommendation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
  6. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Wilson,

    Heh, I lived in SF Sunset for about 4 years, so I do know the area somewhat.

    My experience is that most nurseries, although there are certainly exceptions, buy small maples and grow them on to sell; sometimes not even bothering to repot. And of course the people selling plants may just be passing on as best as they can remember what their supervisors have told them. I have gotten some radically bad advice at times, and of course there is no one-size-fits-all because all of our climates are different. The best general advice comes from specialty books like "Japanese Maples" (Fourth edition) by Vertrees/Gregory.

    Certainly one thing all maple professionals and hobbyists agree on is: as go the roots, so goes the top.

    On the subject of the excellent Dr Chalker-Scott, if I followed her advice to the letter every time I would certainly have far less living maples in my garden than at present. But most of her ideas work for me, and she's a great source. Still we all have to figure out what works in our own environment; particularly if it's far less than the ideal conditions experienced in parts of Oregon or, indeed, of the Bay Area.

    If it is possible for you to plant without any amended backfill, as Dr C-S recommends, that is certainly the way to go for long term health of the tree.

    I don't know what's in SuperThrive, but sure why not. Personally I have been using mycorrhizal fungi for a couple of years now and am pleased with the results. I also use some bone meal at planting time. Others will say that's a bad idea, but it works for me. I incorporate leaf mould as organic matter and a touch of seaweed compost also.

    I think the fertilizer is too much. Just my opinion. I never fertilize plants that aren't established with nitrogen, because you're pushing leaf growth that the roots may not yet be able to feed. Further, why promote growth in Aug/Sept when it wont have time to ripen and is unlikely to make it through the winter? That seems like the plant will look great for a while, then die back or possibly fail. For me, not a good idea. Your maple has to make it through the first 2 years (at least) before you can encourage it to put on more leaf; but then also, the leaf/root balance is the thing.

    I would absolutely spray Bi hoo (as I do with mine) with Bordeaux mix several times during the winter and early spring.

    Interesting post JT, your point about not pruning tips in winter is very obvious and I never thought of it. So thanks! :) (I usually only do major pruning in early winter, but I have sometimes said "I'll just have that off now" when it would have been better to wait...) On the subject of pruning leggy growth, on young plants or grafts I sometimes leave this on, or much of it, because I feel the plant has had good root development and wants to put on the leaves to match. This seems to be the start of a virtuous circle.

    cheers,

    -E
     
  7. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Let me put things in perspective for you.
    I find it amusing that some people swear
    by someone else's do's and don'ts for
    growing plants and then do something
    that runs contrary to what that person's
    agenda has stated in other myth articles.
    The problem that no one seems to want
    to associate with is what does that person
    know about Maples and when or has that
    person ever grown a Maple? We have to
    learn at some point in time how to apply
    our knowledge and personal sentiments
    and also know where and what instance
    they may apply and when and where they
    do not apply as opposed to stating that
    they have no practical application anywhere
    at any time.

    We have years of study to back up claims
    that organic matter in the soil is beneficial
    to a plant. Why limit ourselves by stating
    that in one circumstance that more organic
    matter in the ground than the tree can readily
    utilize is too much. Too much for how long
    and for which trees. I doubt any forester is
    telling any of their contemporaries that too
    much organic matter in a forest or even
    a serpentine soil is a bona fide detriment
    to the tree all things being equal. Granted,
    when we know what is present in the soil
    we may not want to add in more organic
    matter from a foreign source but we surely
    do try to leave what is present for natural
    occurring organic matter alone and not
    worry about whether it is all available
    to the tree (plant) or not. For a long term
    outlook we may not want all of the organic
    matter in the soil substrate to be utilized
    all at once.

    To state that this amount is too much and
    this amount is not enough depends on where
    we are, what climate we are in, what soil
    limitations are we dealing with, which trees
    are we working with and what do we want from
    them.

    The problem with the tree in question is that
    it is showing the black colored bands near
    some apical tips of Verticillium alboatrum.
    Some cultivars are loaded with this form of
    Verticillium inside the plant. If this tree had
    the quick decline form of Verticillium dahliae
    it would have died (rapid and pronounced
    collapse) long before the photos were taken.
    In this case it is not the grower that was the
    issue here. It was the cultivar itself and why
    there is a specific need to grow standardized
    rootstocks along with more proficient selection
    of scion wood gathered and used for grafting.
    We would not have grown this cultivar for resale
    due to its current amount of alboatrum in the
    plant.

    Jim
     
  8. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    Hi Jim,
    I feel very honored that you took the time to respond, thank you for your invaluable comments. Since my maple has Verticillium alboatrum, I am not sure now if my soil is/will be contaminated overtime. If there is no remedy I rather replace this tree with another cultivar.

    After JT1 mentioned about your name, I have been going through several of your past threads to continue to learn as much as I can. I am not sure if you have written books, white papers or other, I find your real world knowledge paramount to all.

    I will be attending the San Francisco Flower & Garden Show this week, wondering if some of you might attend.

    Regards,
    Wilson
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    I run counter to most people's opinion
    and am not overly concerned about
    planting in the same hole where a
    Maple has died over time due to
    the long term affects of alboatrum.
    If the tree died due to quick decline,
    which I've never had happen to me
    with a California grown Maple then
    I surely would not replant in the
    same hole. I've recycled potting
    soil many times over from Maples
    that have had alboatrum without
    any short term or long term effects
    presenting themselves. The issue
    is that alboatrum is already in the
    plant and even in native soils around
    here that do have dahliae in them like
    we see in Cotton fields, seldom do we
    see this same pathogen affect Maples
    here. Elsewhere it may be a different
    story, even in Pleasanton, Woodside
    all the way up to Marin and into Sonoma
    county.

    Just keep the tree growing in a vigorous
    state and you should be okay. Actually
    your tree is cleaner than most Bihou
    I've seen and with you planting it in the
    ground, you should be okay. It is a good
    thing to have your soil tested for soil pH,
    organic matter and nutrients. The hard
    part is interpreting the results and what
    to do afterwards sometimes.

    I like Superthrive used as a liquid application
    for young trees (older than one year). There
    are (were in the original formula) two root
    builders in the formulation that I know can
    aid with root shoot formation and root system
    maintenance.

    Just remember that alboatrum by itself is not
    lethal to a palmatum type Maple. In conjunction
    with a major stress, series of stresses, a boring
    insect or another pathogen such as Psuedomonas
    then the alboatrum can kill over a period of time.
    What is not well known is that we can prune out
    a lot of the fungus at strategic times of the year.
    In other words cultural control by pruning alone
    can help for fungal suppression. As long as
    we get adequate replacement new growth to
    emerge and appear healthy we can prolong
    the life of the tree indefinitely. The tree can
    live with this fungus in its system and luckily
    for you, you are in an area that does not have
    the extreme heat and the cold that we get South
    of you in the Central Valley.

    Is the show still at the San Mateo fairgrounds?
    We used to show and attend that show a lot
    in past years. Only Portland comes close to it.

    Jim
     
  10. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    Hi Jim,
    Thank you again for your valuable contribution and comprehensive feedback. What I care the most for this maple and the others I have Emperor One, Beni Kawa and Shindeshojo is how well the root system develops versus how fast is the tree leaves growth rate through over fertilization, etc.

    In reference to SUPERthrive since I planted May 2012 all maples mentioned above, I only applied twice when I first planted and 2 weeks after in addition I applied every month, March through September 9-3-6, Dyna-gro. Please note these were the recommendations of the local arborist/maple seller.

    Based on your experience should I stop, continue Dyna-gro and SUPERthrive (what frequency? when?) or have a different (other products) approach for all maples?

    The San Francisco Flower & Garden Show March 20-24 & location
    http://www.sfgardenshow.com/the-show/san-mateo-event-center.html

    Regards,
    Wilson
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  11. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: O.T. my generalizations (mainly for container trees)

    Liquid applications at less than full strength
    applications can be applied more often than
    liquid applications at full strength during the
    growing season. I am just not a big proponent
    of using fertilizers often like some people want
    to use them. I was an outcast in two Citrus
    forums by being so selective as to when and
    how often I fertilized outdoor container Citrus
    and in ground Citrus. I still feel, that when an
    researcher in an another area of expertise
    (horticulture), from a different growing area
    than ours, growing primarily juice oranges;
    vastly overstates what amounts of fertilizer
    should be recommended and are universally
    utilized by the plant, we need to take a step
    back and analyze what our own plant needs
    are. When greenhouse growers are applying
    time release gel-caps so often during the growing
    season tells me their super duper potting
    medium is not all that great for nutrient holding
    capacity. Certainly does not compare favorably
    to my potting soil substrate which has native
    soil in the mix. I do not have to apply
    Nitrogen so often or at the rates that others
    feel they need to keep their trees colored
    up and growing vigorously. So few people
    take into account what does all of this
    concern about getting top growth do to the
    root system over time. In Maples I've seen
    what over-fertilization can do to a root system.
    All we have to do is lift the tree out of the
    container. no matter how small such as a
    four inch pot to a fifteen gallon can and take
    a look and get an idea what that root system
    is doing.

    Let me throw some caution into the wind right
    now. We can bring on a stress to the tree
    using too much Nitrogen all at once or at the
    wrong time of the year. This stress can aid
    in alboatrum plugging up the vascular system
    faster than it would otherwise with limited or
    no application of Nitrogen at all. An easy
    way to kill an already infested Maple is to
    give it too much or sometimes any additional
    Nitrogen applications. I've stated before that
    I am comfortable with the amount of Nitrogen
    I get just from reasonably fresh potting soil.
    I prefer root growth to top growth, so if I choose
    to apply Nitrogen as a supplement, I will do it
    in the Spring as a commercial granular formula.
    If I felt that trees three years old or older needed
    something to help them color up so to speak then
    I will use a liquid formulation such as MirAcid
    perhaps one to two times at half strength during
    May - June at that is it. I've stated many times
    before of my fondness to use 0-10-10 during the
    growing season and right before Winter for both
    Maples and Citrus. Using one to two ounces
    of granular 0-10-10 in the Spring, Fall and late
    Winter just works well for me here. May not
    be needed so much or so often in other areas
    but can be applied in many (most) areas at least
    once during the year without any real harm
    being done.

    I am not one to tell people they are wrong when
    they feel the outcome is what they want from
    a particular brand of fertilizer that I do not use
    for my trees. I know from two Citrus forums
    that people have felt they have achieved good
    results using Dyna-gro. I know of a Cooperative
    Extension through a well-known University that
    recommends Dyna-gro for container grown trees.
    Thus, what can or is good for Citrus may just
    apply to Maples but here again is my caution
    in that we are real careful using liquid fertilizers
    with Nitrogen for Maples younger than three year
    old grafts, meaning they are on their fourth growing
    season. [Too many times nurseries want to call
    their plants for sale two year grafts when those
    trees are not two years old yet with only one
    growing season behind them. A one year graft
    is a tree that was grafted and then grown on for
    a year, starting its second year of growth. More
    than a few people have selectively forgotten that!]

    A rate of 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water surely
    is not too much to apply during the Spring and
    early Summer months for trees older than three
    years old, whether in five gallon containers or
    better yet in the ground. Essentially you are
    spreading out one application into four total
    applications and that regimen seems workable
    with me for the short term.

    Jim
     
  12. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    Hi Jim,

    Thank your for sharing your insight. I have now a better understanding.

    Wilson
     
  13. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    The counter-productiveness of amending planting holes began to be seen during organized scientific trials in the 1960's. Probably the most prominent pioneer in the area of testing and revising methods of plant production and maintenance is Carl E. Whitcomb. Since he retired from university work he has been operating Lacebark Inc., where he continues to evaluate and instruct - see his web site. Find his books at college libraries.

    Like Whitcomb Chalker-Scott bases her conclusions and reports on scientific studies. I do not however, agree with absolutely everything she has stated.

    For ongoing discussion among multiple professionals see the Gardening Professors web site that Chalker-Scott links to.

    To sort the grain from the chaff read the argument, the basis for the recommendations being made, and decide if you think it makes sense. Results of controlled experiments are the best things to ponder, not the pronouncements of dogmatists and those who have a commercial interest - vendors and clerks are not researchers.
     
  14. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    Hi Ron B,

    Thank you for providing additional comments. I concur that results from controlled experiments without a commercial agenda are the best interest to the public. I see an exponential value of very talented, dedicated and passionate individuals in this forum.

    Sincerely,
    Wilson
     
  15. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    I am sharing updated photos 5 and 6 (taken 3/25/12). It looks like to me that verticilium alboatrum is spreading even though the weather is getting warmer. Another observation is the black on bark is showing in the sun facing side.

    Thank you,
    Wilson
     

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  16. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Wilsonrio,

    I am reading your post a bit late. Jim has given all the good responses that I subscribe to.
    I have 3 'Bihou's growing in my garden and they can be grown successfully for the enjoyment of their bark throughout the year and the nice fall colors. As with all the other bark colored cultivars of A. palmatum, it is very susceptible to Pseudomonas infection in early spring which will require light pruning.
    Most maples will recover of a Verticillium alboatrum attack unless the tree is already weakened by other problems. This fungus is present everywhere, albeit with different concentrations, and the best way to combat it is to maintain your tree as healthy as possible in a soil that promotes the beneficial microorganisms rather that the noxious.

    I was amused reading your statement about too much organic matter being potentially bad for the trees, whoever stated that was probably thinking of Opuntias.....

    Each gardener has his/her own approaches and forums like this are useful to share experiences. In my case I never use any fertilizer for my maples (and I have a lot), those in the ground find their nutriments from the organic matter I add (mainly oak leaves). Those in pots receive a generous surface layer of oak leaf mold.

    Gomero
     

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  17. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    Hi Gomero,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am happy to hear that your 3 Bihous are growing well. I am not sure if in the United States Bihous are licensed and all come from the same source or if there is a possibility to get Bihous from different sources where the cultivar is not loaded with alboatrum or other diseases.

    The papers "Myth of Soil Amendments" I read is from Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D. If you or anyone else is interested I am sharing below links to the original paper and other related research. I concur that nothing in life is absolute, different ecosystems require different approaches in order to succeed and sometimes further research is needed and ongoing.

    The Myth of Soil Amendments:
    "When transplanting trees or shrubs into landscapes, amend the backfill soil with organic matter."
    http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Amendments.pdf

    The Myth of Soil Amendments Part II:
    "If you have a clay soil, add sand to improve its texture"
    http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Amendments 2.pdf

    The Myth of Soil Amendments, Part III
    “Healthy soil has high organic content”
    http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda ...ltural myths_files/Myths/Compost overdose.pdf


    Other General References:

    Horticultural Myths
    http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/Horticultural Myths_files/index.html

    Fact Sheets and Case Studies
    http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/Fact sheets.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  18. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks Wilsonrio, I am quite familiar with the ideas of Ms. Chalker-Scott, I have all her books.
    In general I tend to agree with her but her ideas are intended for gardeners in temperate, humid gardens and cannot be universally applied to all conditions throughout the world. Take for instance her advice not to amend the planting hole to avoid water concentrating there and rotting the roots, it makes a lot of sense in places where rains are abundant in the dormant season when the roots cannot drink all the water. But in warmer, drier places, like the Mediterranean or Southern California, where the dormant period is quite short, you would be happy if your planting hole retains water for the plant to grow faster.

    Gomero
     
  19. wilsonrio

    wilsonrio New Member

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    Please find attached an extract that I put together from Carlmont Nursery about Japanese Maples pests and diseases identification. This is a high level document with photos, indication, cause and treatment describing the following: verticillium wilt, pseudomonas, underwatering, sun burn, wind burn, salt burn, fall leaf drop, aphids, catepillars, powdery mildew, sooty mold, different style leaves appearing, discolored leaves.

    Perhaps this type of document and/or format could be an evolving document, FAQ section?

    Thank you,

    Wilson
     

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