Orangeola Crimson Queen Tamukeyama I'd like a red lace leaf I can put on the front side of my house. The spot is almost directly under the porch awning but it will probably get 2-3 hours of direct sun a day between 2-4pm as the sun sets between the houses. Will be completely shaded the rest of the time from the awning and next door neighbors house. I've got a seiryu, 2 viridis, and a waterfall that are doing fine in similar spots. Any thoughts? Anyone else in DFW area? I'm in Lake Dallas, just south of Denton.
I doubt you will see the Maple stay red for long and then it will turn green and stay that way until the Fall. 2-3 hours of mid afternoon sun will not be enough to keep a red dissectum red in color after its Spring showing. If the Maple is going to go from red to green anyway then get an Ornatum. Of your three choices then I'd go with an Orangeola. Jim
I agree with mr shep about bronzing/greening. Red filigree lace should be considered because 1) extremely finely dissected 2) will take hot mid afternoon sun with little burning 3)lovely "mushroom" shape. It is slow growing.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not quite as concerned with it staying red as with it staying healthy. Depending on where I plant it, it could see anywhere from 2-6 hours of direct afternoon sun. I guess I should be asking which of the 3 can take the most sun in a southern climate. I'm 60 miles from Okalahoma and 30 miles N of Dallas. I think i'm in zone 7b. Its not that humid here but pretty consistantly hot and dry from May to September.
I have all 4 cultivars mentioned and my locale is always 80-100+ degrees in summer and my experience says Red Filigree Lace. Good luck.
This below is not a put down to you as I will not do that but since no one likes my posts in these forums anyway, there is no need to pooh-pooh this subject herein and let it fester any longer. I am sorry but I cannot allow it to happen. Which form of Red Filigree Lace do you have the black-red or the red-red? I had my plant for 18 years, how long have you had yours and which nursery did it originate from? The reason for the latter part of the question is that the black-red form can handle morning to mid day sun in a wind protected location but cannot tolerate mid to late afternoon sun in temperatures right at 100 degrees and more. The red-red form which at one time was sold as Ruby Lace by an Oregon nursery, originated as a seedling from a nearby Oregon nursery and is not the same Ruby Lace that came to William Goddard in Canada from Oregon years previous, can handle heat and hot winds much better than the black-red form can. The red-red form is a much cleaner Maple than Red Filigree Lace will ever be. If you've ever seen 200 five gallon plants all dying from quick decline Verticillium right before your eyes in a Northern California nursery back in the late 80's that came in from Oregon less than a month earlier, then you would be real hesitant to recommend the black-red form of Red Filigree Lace to anyone. Ornatum can handle the warmer temperatures better than Crimson Queen and Tamukeyama can. I grew my Orangeola, now planted in a private garden, facing directly West, right into the hottest part of sun of the day. It was not the heat that would chew up this Maple it was the hot winds. Ornatum, true form, can handle the hot winds better than Orangeola and only have the tips of the lobes become crispy whereas the Orangeola can have more burning on the outer edges of the lobes but not have the overall scorch that a Crimson Queen or a Tamukeyama will get. Both Crimson Queen and Tamukeyama will do great when given morning to early mid day sun in a wind protected location. Jim
Jim, thanks for the history. I have the red-red. 1 of my red-red's is 10+ years old. Breaks my heart to imagine watching those maples die in a group from wilt.
A gentle reminder: the focus of these forums is plants. Statements like this one shift the focus, however slightly, to be about the personality of the people who post about plants. In my opinion, people will visit and revisit and participate and question on these forums if a) they feel it somehow benefits them and b) they feel welcome to participate. Feel free to disagree with me, but I suspect they will find the forums more valuable and of benefit to them if the focus remains as I (and my employers) believe it should be (i.e., about plants) instead of a discussion about whether other community members in the forums do or do not conform to a sweeping statement that cannot ultimately be proven or disproven.
Chill Daniel...that's just Jim. We all have certain idiosyncracies, that's what makes us who we are. By the way many leaves on my Quercus myrsinifolia are serrated halfway or more. I would go with a 'Tamuke yama' if a large plant, 12' or better, is okay. 'Orangeola' for a more compact plant with much finer texture. If you did want good red color retention look for a 'Red Dragon'
Breaks my heart to imagine watching those maples die in a group from wilt. We all took seeing those plants like that personal. From my vantage point I can always leave the forums. I am not seeing any real attempt to have intellectual discussions anyway. The people that claim to know Maples never write and I keep asking myself what are they afraid of? If they know their subject well they should not hesitate to write. So what if we are wrong in what we know every now and then. We don't learn anything if we are right all of the time. We learn much more when we are wrong but many people's egos cannot stand the notion of ever being wrong, worse yet when it is proved to them they are wrong. On my side of the fence I am saying, do you guys want to learn Maples or not as there seems to be no current day mentors for these plants. Buddies patting each other on the back, telling them how great they are, will not cut it with me or the people that were mentors to me in Maples. People that have grown Maples and have some acquired knowledge about them from area to area, know some of their responses to cultural conditions which are areas that the book authors with several cultivar Maples just do not know yet. What I tell you guys whether it is in Maples, Conifers, Magnolias or Fruit Trees is not anything new. Others know this stuff and other people years ago even in the UBC Botanical Garden knew some of the Conifer contorta stuff I recently wrote about. Ask them sometime! Sometimes in order to get people's attention we have act in a way other than what we would normally be for people to read rather than pass over the information and in a month of two make us go over it all again. Also, in various posts in this Maple forum I am stepping on toes with some of my comments. The book authors do not have much for knowledge of some of these plants as much of their knowledge was passed from word of mouth to them and they know even less of the history of many of the Maples we take for granted. Who else can tell you people and who else will offer some enlightenment on some of these Maple cultivars and add in some of their history? You guys have not done it. See you guys. Thanks Brad, love you too. Talk with you later. Jim
People sharing opinions and beliefs about plant cultivation and propagation is not an intellectual discussion?
We have a Crimson Queen in zone 8 (South Carolina) and it does pretty well. It fades to green in late July, early August. It recieved dappled light off and on all day.
Thank you all for the suggestions. I ended up getting one gal orangeola, inaba, and shantung from Metro Maples. Both the laceleafs were highly recommended for heat tolerance and hardiness. They are currently in my training area where they receive full sun until noon and seem to be thriving. I'll try to take some pics tonight and post.
Inabe shidare is a very nice maple, but it will by far be the least sun-tolerant of the two. Plant the Orangeola in the sunnier location. MJH
I just took a peek after a few days of not looking at all in these forums and saw that my comments were still posted. I thought sure they would be deleted and the whole tirade edited to the first comment. It should have been. No matter how much perceived truth there may or may not be, inferred or otherwise, that kind of outburst has no place in these forums and never should be encouraged. It is insidious to think that I am writing on behalf of others when they can make their feelings known by themselves. I was dead wrong to write what I did in the manner in which it was done and for that I am not feeling anything positive should come about from that said tirade, even if it does lead to more active participation in these forums from others. I agree what was done is not plant related material and should not be allowed to stay as is. It serves no valid purpose other than a blatant attempt to express frustration in an underhanded way on the part of the poster and for that I apologize to all of you. Jim
Jim, please keep educating me. I come to this forum to learn and be of service and I am never disappointed. Our beautiful maples are not the only wonderful "people" in our lives. Thank you for those powerful and wise words.
Jim, You are a very important member of this community! I love to call my wife in and show her you post that scroll for several pages. Yes your responses are verbose and often go to the emotional side of things, but it is only your passion for the plants that brings it out. There is alot of history with plants especially maples (Alot of which i would never know except for your posts.) I can handle the passion as long as it contains useful information about the plants, and your post do. I am new to this hobby. Reading books such as 'Japanese Maples' have taught me alot. But there is alot left out on the editing floor when these books are written. That is why these kind of forums are great. They allow us to devle deeper into the subjects than a simple paragraph can. You and others on this forum bring numerous years of experience which i love to try and get from you. Your mentioning the red-black vs red-red earlier in this post was a little blunt, but that is the way you try to get a point across. There was a point there, something i would never have known if you hadnt mentioned it. I was out in the yard examining mine right after that. That kind of information is priceless, and worth trying to read thru your post. If you were being malicous, that would be a different story. Daniel has helped to create this wonderful enviroment for us to share knowledge, and wants to try and keep that up. I would take his comments as constructive advice on how to conduct this forum, nothing more. We all must remember words on a post can be often misinterpeted out of context, and as such we should try and make clear our points so that others can understand ours. Thanks Again to Jim, Daniel, and everybody else participating in this forum Mike
Elmore is right regarding the Red Dragon. I live between Houston and Dallas, and I find the Red Dragon retains its red color far better than Crimson Queen or Garnet. My Red Dragon is in a shady spot with a high overstory of Post oak. I have yet to see any burn. I know that is different from where you want to plant yours though.
I had my mind set on a red dragon, but the guy at metro maples sold me on an Inaba Shidare. I think his point was that it was a faster grower and more upright. I'm somewhat sorry now. It seems to be bronzing out and has alot of tip burn. It is too soon to pull the plug so I will give it some time and see how it fairs now that fall is almost here. If its doing poor in the spring I will probably exchange it for a dragon. On the other hand, the orangeola could not be doing better. Almost no leaf burn at all and has sprouted new leaves. Seems oblivious to the heat and sun. Off topic - I have a large waterfall I picked up at a calloway's clearance that is really struggling along. If anyone in the N Texas area is interested in trading for it drop me a line. I dont want to kill the poor thing. Its currently in limbo on my back porch in a shady spot. Its probably 4-5' tall and the trunk is 1-2". I think it was $30 but i'd like to see it get a good home so i'm not concerned with offers. Thanks, Toby
I have attached two photos of a Inaba Shidare and a Red Dragon, the Inaba Shidare is one year older and is in full sun while the Red Dragon is in dappled shade. As is apparent by the photos, the Inaba Shidare is probably 3-4 times as large and while it does bronze out in Summer it has a nice red color in Spring and Fall. The Red Dragon, even in the shade retains its red color and has never bronzed out. But, boy, talk about slow growth!!!! this tree has probable grown less than a foot in 5 years. The canopy has spread but it is about the same height as when acquired. Red Dragon photo was taken yesterday, Inaba Shidare last Fall. Swanny
Go to Metromaples.com which is in Fort Worth cause they're about to release a Shantung Maple 'Fire Dragon' for Fall 2005 which is a bright cardinal red in the fall. Fire Dragon also has a nice leaf pattern, different from the typical Shantung. It was a seedling discovered in Arlington, and thrives in North Texas.
I cant fit another 30' tree in my yard. I already have 2 shantungs and they are excellent tree's. I'd love to see one though so maybe i'll make another trip. Metromaples should charge admission.
