Acer palmatum 'Dissectum Nigrum'

Discussion in 'Acer palmatum cultivars (photos)' started by PPC_SPC, Apr 27, 2006.

  1. PPC_SPC

    PPC_SPC Member

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    ‘Ever Red’ is a selection which offers an unusual characteristic as the new leaves emerge; they are covered with fine silvery pubescence, and give the opening buds a grayish, blue tint. This form maintains its deep red color well into the summer. It is also sometimes listed as A. palmatum dissectum ‘Dissectum Nigrum’ which is actually the original, legitimate name. Older plants may reach 10-12' with age.
     

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  2. pensylvaticum

    pensylvaticum Active Member

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    Re: Acer palmatum 'Ever Red'

    Hi,
    Ever Red is an illegitimate name for Dissectum Nigrum.
    Kindest Regards,
    P
     
  3. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Thanks again, changed from 'Ever Red' to 'Dissectum Nigrum'.
     
  4. spookiejenkins

    spookiejenkins Active Member

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    So, I am confused (surprise!)...

    Is 'Everred'/'Ever Red' not a trademarked name for 'Dissectum Nigrum'?

    Are 'Everred'/'Ever Red' and 'Dissectum Nigrum' different cultivars?

    My apologies for the novice question. When a cultivar is frequently referred to by multiple names, it is difficult to clarify... For example, I still am not clear about 'Bonfire'/'Segai' either.

    Thank you for increasing my maple IQ.
     
  5. pensylvaticum

    pensylvaticum Active Member

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    Hi,
    Not a silly question. Nomenclature confusion is very confusing, and it is not easy sometimes to get your head straight with it. Bonfire is an illegitimate term for Segai used only in America. Unfortunately all names except Dissectum Nigrum and Segai are illegitimate.
    Kindest regards,
    p
     
  6. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Acer palmatum 'Dissectum Nigrum', Acer
    palmatum dissectum 'Nigrum'
    , Acer palmatum
    dissectum 'Ever Red‘
    , Acer palmatum dissectum
    'Nigra'
    .


    What do all of these Maples have in common?
    They all have existed or still exist as different
    plants. In the above group of Maples we have
    one atropurpureum red group member, two
    nigrum group reds and one shojo group red.
    Two of the above originated or were named
    in Europe, one Maple was selected out in
    Japan and one was named in the US. At
    one time a well known nursery in Pennsylvania
    had all four of the above named plants in their
    collection. Two of the Maples came in to them
    from European sources, one came from Hohman
    in Maryland and the other came from a nursery
    in California via Japan.

    We have to have or have access to all four
    Maples to know how and when they will
    be different. Just because an author states
    he could not tell them apart does not mean
    that he ever owned or had access to them
    to know is something that I wished never
    happened but I've been through it when I
    visited that nursery looking for a specific
    Maple that was pictured in the book and
    then learn the plant was not ever on the
    premises.

    This is for you Matt - ‘Inaba shidare’ can
    exist as five color group reds. The black
    red Spring leaf out color is the true form
    shojo group. The purple reds are the
    atropurpureum and the closely related
    nigrum group. The red reds during the
    Spring leaf out are the nomura and the
    rubrum group forms.

    Can a red group form plant be influenced
    by the color of the rootstock? Yes, it
    can in that the true form shojo group
    red ‘Inaba shidare’ can in time become
    an atropurpureum Maple. So that what
    once was a standardized color for 'Inaba
    shidare' is now seen in the nurseries as
    principally an atropurpureum red was due
    to continued grafting onto green seedling
    rootstock. Because this Maple could be
    changed rather soon through grafting,
    attempts were made to keep the old plant
    in tact and required this Maple to be
    propagated by rooted cuttings. The same
    scenario was also true for Wada's Acer
    palmatum dissectum 'Nigra'
    in that it could
    change and become an atropurpureum
    form plant after just two rounds (series)
    of grafting it on a green or even a red
    atropurpureum seedling rootstock.

    ‘Ever Red’ became a nursery standard
    Maple due to its ability to hold its color
    well in most Maple growing regions, no
    matter how much or how often it was
    grafted onto a green seedling rootstock.
    The other three form plants listed above
    could not match ‘Ever Red’ for consistent
    coloring. ‘Ever Red’ is perhaps the most
    stable red dissectum of all time because
    of its dependability to color up and hold
    its color well and its ability to adapt and
    grow reasonably well in a wide array of
    growing environments. The three other
    Maples have all had problems holding
    their color as well or as long as ‘Ever
    Red’ and/or have had growing issues
    when grown in less than ideal growing
    climates.

    I have a suggestion that a few Maple
    enthusiasts should contact Mr.'s Cor
    or Dick van Gelderen and ask them
    how 'Dissectum Atropurpureum', their
    'Dissectum Nigrum' and their 'Dissectum
    Rubrum' Maples differ in leaf color from
    each other in a growing season to
    better learn how these Maples can
    be separated just by their leaf color
    changes they will make in a typical
    growing year. We have to know some
    of that information about them to better
    place the red group members in their
    prospective groups.


    Anyone that has ever owned ‘Shojo
    shidare’and ‘Nomura shdiare’ can
    easily tell them apart within a couple
    of weeks after the Spring leaf out
    and see a major change in color after
    the first flush of new growth. We can
    also see how the atropurpureum and
    the nigrum group members differ from
    each other at the same stages of their
    development. Sometime count the
    lobes on 'Dissectum Nigrum' and
    'Ever Red' and look closely at the
    cuts in the basal lobes to tell them
    apart when the coloring of them
    appear to be the same as they are
    leafing out. After they leaf out they
    are pretty easy to tell apart just in
    leaf color. Which Maple will have
    some bronze red overtone in the
    leaves and which one won't prior
    to the next flush of new growth?

    By the way ‘Ever Red’ came about
    as a seedling selection from Acer
    palmatum ‘Nigrum’
    not from Acer
    palmatum ‘Dissectum Nigrum’
    .

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2008
  7. spookiejenkins

    spookiejenkins Active Member

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    Now I'm really confused.
     
  8. pensylvaticum

    pensylvaticum Active Member

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    Spooky do not be confused.
    There are not enough denrological differences according to scientific study, but there are slight variations with many cutivar caused by virus, bacteria or some other natural,or unnatural?bacterial, viral or enviromental variation thus cause and extending nomenclature confusion. The names are illegitimate and are cause of nomenclature confusion. If a cultivar has features wothy of denotation then they should be given a distinct name, and plants as Mr. shep points out are not different enough to have nomenclature status.These variations can be interesting to the maple collector and enthusiast like all the people on this board and discussions, so we may have differences of opinion, but science is as close to truth as you will get in this case and point, and opinion is just that. They are all the same plant only with name varients and are illegitimate names, but to a collector and entusiast the plant varients are plants worthy of status, but passion must not cloud the mind nor judgement.
    Kindest regards,
    p
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2008
  9. pensylvaticum

    pensylvaticum Active Member

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    Mr.shep,
    According to science Dissectun nigrum and Ever red"...being erected by Cascio(c.1965)..." being illegitimate are the same plant, and Nigrum is not a dissectum it is a palmate and you are scientifically not correct in parentage. The fact is it would be highly unlikely a parent to this dissected cultivar but not impossible. There is nothing diffinitive of its parantage as it was found in open pollinated batch of seedings.You may wish to take this up with a dendrologist or botonist.
    You may be passionate and I am too but please do not confuse fact from ficticious wish in your long statement there is noting to support. It does not mean to say they are not worthy of collecting more than one specimen which may be slightly different from the other, as i wrote to spooky.
    As far as Inabe shindare five colours sometimes it is difficult to get the true to form cultivar, as in the book description, as parentage may be varient, and not true to the original parent which happens in clonal plants in the travel from one place to another and causing varients which is again part of the nomenclature issue because people think they have a new plant but is not, or they wish it was a new plant so they discovered which we all do wish, or embarrasingly can not sell this plant as the original parent because it is not true to form, or other reason.
    I do admire your passion.
    Best wishes,
    P
    I wish to add I will be posting on Hubbs red willow and Hupps willow which are dendrologically I believe the same plant but one is red and the other is a beautiful yellow which is one example which I have collected concerning this nomenclature identification and differentiation issue. The only difference is colour and under nomenclature rules is not sufficent for nomenclature status but as varients go it is a wonderful addition for collectors and passionate maple lover. I hope to have photographs before autumn colour sets in.I will post as a new thread on this if this is allowed because it is important as brought up in this thread to differenciate between nomenclature variation and cultivar status.It is also possible this plant will revert to its natural cultivar status colours next season-this variation may or may not be stable????which is true of any varient!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2008
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    There are others around that know of what I
    wrote. I think you can find a few comments
    about my reservations with newly contrived
    naming conventions when there was a
    convention used in Europe back in the mid
    1800's that was abided by for the most part,
    even in Japan as well.

    As we've seen or some of us know of several
    Maples may have been credited as originating
    from a specific source and later on we learn
    from talking to people that had the Maple
    that the originator was not the person that
    named it. A lot of olden day Maples were
    not meant to be named as so many were
    variant forms of a known plant, which runs
    contrary to today's line of thought which is
    to name everything - any old seedling can
    be named now and the Dendrologists and
    the Botanists are no help in this matter.
    Besides, a late nurseryman or two that
    were pioneers in Maples did have advanced
    degrees in Botany. I was mentored in
    Maples by one of them at a time when
    I already had two advanced degrees in
    other plant related fields.

    Yes, there are some Maples that had
    same names but most of them are of
    different forms such as one being a
    palmate form and the other being a
    dissectum. It is rather late in the
    game to be wanting to change the
    name of a cultivar today when that
    same plant has been cultivated and
    sold for almost 100 years. Just like
    the name nana in Pines has been
    overused to death and some people
    today feel that the name should
    no longer be used. I agree with
    them up to a point but to use
    an arbitrary year in the 50's as
    a reference point to state the
    all nanas are now considered
    misnamed is almost comical
    as many of the dwarf Pines had
    nana names before the 50's.

    I am not going to defend some
    of the naming of Maples but I
    chose to go with it rather than
    fight it. If a palmate form has
    the name Nigra and a dissectum
    also has the name Nigra then
    it was up to me to learn them,
    rather than dismiss them and
    not have a clue as to what those
    Maples are and how they are
    different from other red Maples,

    Forgot to mention this, Ever Red
    was a nursery name. The Ever
    Red trade name Maple has been
    cultivated and sold on the West
    Coast for over 50 years (Western
    Garden Book
    but you might have
    to backtrack a little from the recent
    editions to find the yearly edition
    where that information was listed
    in) which pre-dates your reference.

    Jim
     
  11. pensylvaticum

    pensylvaticum Active Member

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    Mr.shep,
    Anything which predates the International Rules of Nomenclature is an issue which related, and older latin or other names predating 1.Janruary 1959 are valid in accordance, and postdate also in accordance, but the international rules are the rules which are to be followed and concerning Dissectum nigrum this applies, as to all cultivar.There are still nomenclature confusions, and continues this does still cause confusion, however any names which predate this are held to their names and any varient named after 1959 are in accordance to these rules which are there to prevent further confusion and cause at least some clarity oin the issue. Any nursery person, botanist, or dendrologist with degree in the field know this, and if a person knowingly sells cultivar under pseudonyms is not doing cultivar,collectors and passionate maple lovers any favours, and going with it is not wise as it adds confusion further. These rules have a purpose and should be adhered to because it is important to have some clarity and learning also means being able to seperate a varient from a true cultivar. With the greatest respect I do believe science has not solved the problem of nomenclature but it is the best we have and until there is a way to seperate and clarify it is the best method to follow.
    Respectfully,
    P
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2008
  12. pensylvaticum

    pensylvaticum Active Member

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    I do have varients and under other names, eg. scolopendrifoliumwhich is the illegitimate name for Linearilobum, an old cultivar, and unoriginal the name may be it is the true name of the cultivar. these varients are: one which is green bark with green leaf and another which is red barked,with reddish orange with some underlying green and until they are named or clarified as different dendrologically I treat them as varients of the same plant. This does give me some comfort to know mother nature and cultivar have provided some wonderful varients and I do believe nomenclature should include a subsection which includes a rules for naming varients in respect with and to seperating them dendrologically from seperate cultivar. None the less they are a wonderful addition to the collection of collecting and enjoying these beautiful plants.
    Best wishes,
    P
    Perhaps someone going to the Maple Society forum may wish to bring up the issues presented here, and perhaps there will be a way to further clarify this important issue raised.A subsection under nomenclature rules and a way to clarify the nomenclature problems and differentials between cultivar status, names, and varients.
     
  13. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Dissectum Nigrum showing the silvery pubescence at leaf out which it is known for
    IMG_20220414_201025.jpg
     
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  14. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    This is really great seeing so many old threads come back to life. I have palmate Nigrum M. I will be interested to see yours develop and how dark it gets. I will post mine tomorrow morning. Will also put it on your darkest maples thread.
     
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  15. maf

    maf Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    In full leaf now and looking pretty good this year. Due for repotting.
    IMG_20220506_175105.jpg IMG_20220506_182316.jpg IMG_20220506_182412.jpg
     
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  16. ROEBUK

    ROEBUK Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Only problem i have with the diss nigrum is you wait all year for it to show it's super silver pubescent hairs , then and only if you are lucky you might get 10/12 days of silver hairs before it just becomes another "generic red" dissectum
    Few pictures of mine , same time again 2023 :):)
     

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  17. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    A bit like flowers that bloom for a couple of weeks only every year, but we still love to see them, if only briefly. Great closeups M.
     
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