‘Ever Red’ is a selection which offers an unusual characteristic as the new leaves emerge; they are covered with fine silvery pubescence, and give the opening buds a grayish, blue tint. This form maintains its deep red color well into the summer. It is also sometimes listed as A. palmatum dissectum ‘Dissectum Nigrum’ which is actually the original, legitimate name. Older plants may reach 10-12' with age.
Re: Acer palmatum 'Ever Red' Hi, Ever Red is an illegitimate name for Dissectum Nigrum. Kindest Regards, P
So, I am confused (surprise!)... Is 'Everred'/'Ever Red' not a trademarked name for 'Dissectum Nigrum'? Are 'Everred'/'Ever Red' and 'Dissectum Nigrum' different cultivars? My apologies for the novice question. When a cultivar is frequently referred to by multiple names, it is difficult to clarify... For example, I still am not clear about 'Bonfire'/'Segai' either. Thank you for increasing my maple IQ.
Hi, Not a silly question. Nomenclature confusion is very confusing, and it is not easy sometimes to get your head straight with it. Bonfire is an illegitimate term for Segai used only in America. Unfortunately all names except Dissectum Nigrum and Segai are illegitimate. Kindest regards, p
Acer palmatum 'Dissectum Nigrum', Acer palmatum dissectum 'Nigrum', Acer palmatum dissectum 'Ever Red‘, Acer palmatum dissectum 'Nigra'. What do all of these Maples have in common? They all have existed or still exist as different plants. In the above group of Maples we have one atropurpureum red group member, two nigrum group reds and one shojo group red. Two of the above originated or were named in Europe, one Maple was selected out in Japan and one was named in the US. At one time a well known nursery in Pennsylvania had all four of the above named plants in their collection. Two of the Maples came in to them from European sources, one came from Hohman in Maryland and the other came from a nursery in California via Japan. We have to have or have access to all four Maples to know how and when they will be different. Just because an author states he could not tell them apart does not mean that he ever owned or had access to them to know is something that I wished never happened but I've been through it when I visited that nursery looking for a specific Maple that was pictured in the book and then learn the plant was not ever on the premises. This is for you Matt - ‘Inaba shidare’ can exist as five color group reds. The black red Spring leaf out color is the true form shojo group. The purple reds are the atropurpureum and the closely related nigrum group. The red reds during the Spring leaf out are the nomura and the rubrum group forms. Can a red group form plant be influenced by the color of the rootstock? Yes, it can in that the true form shojo group red ‘Inaba shidare’ can in time become an atropurpureum Maple. So that what once was a standardized color for 'Inaba shidare' is now seen in the nurseries as principally an atropurpureum red was due to continued grafting onto green seedling rootstock. Because this Maple could be changed rather soon through grafting, attempts were made to keep the old plant in tact and required this Maple to be propagated by rooted cuttings. The same scenario was also true for Wada's Acer palmatum dissectum 'Nigra' in that it could change and become an atropurpureum form plant after just two rounds (series) of grafting it on a green or even a red atropurpureum seedling rootstock. ‘Ever Red’ became a nursery standard Maple due to its ability to hold its color well in most Maple growing regions, no matter how much or how often it was grafted onto a green seedling rootstock. The other three form plants listed above could not match ‘Ever Red’ for consistent coloring. ‘Ever Red’ is perhaps the most stable red dissectum of all time because of its dependability to color up and hold its color well and its ability to adapt and grow reasonably well in a wide array of growing environments. The three other Maples have all had problems holding their color as well or as long as ‘Ever Red’ and/or have had growing issues when grown in less than ideal growing climates. I have a suggestion that a few Maple enthusiasts should contact Mr.'s Cor or Dick van Gelderen and ask them how 'Dissectum Atropurpureum', their 'Dissectum Nigrum' and their 'Dissectum Rubrum' Maples differ in leaf color from each other in a growing season to better learn how these Maples can be separated just by their leaf color changes they will make in a typical growing year. We have to know some of that information about them to better place the red group members in their prospective groups. Anyone that has ever owned ‘Shojo shidare’and ‘Nomura shdiare’ can easily tell them apart within a couple of weeks after the Spring leaf out and see a major change in color after the first flush of new growth. We can also see how the atropurpureum and the nigrum group members differ from each other at the same stages of their development. Sometime count the lobes on 'Dissectum Nigrum' and 'Ever Red' and look closely at the cuts in the basal lobes to tell them apart when the coloring of them appear to be the same as they are leafing out. After they leaf out they are pretty easy to tell apart just in leaf color. Which Maple will have some bronze red overtone in the leaves and which one won't prior to the next flush of new growth? By the way ‘Ever Red’ came about as a seedling selection from Acer palmatum ‘Nigrum’ not from Acer palmatum ‘Dissectum Nigrum’. Jim
Spooky do not be confused. There are not enough denrological differences according to scientific study, but there are slight variations with many cutivar caused by virus, bacteria or some other natural,or unnatural?bacterial, viral or enviromental variation thus cause and extending nomenclature confusion. The names are illegitimate and are cause of nomenclature confusion. If a cultivar has features wothy of denotation then they should be given a distinct name, and plants as Mr. shep points out are not different enough to have nomenclature status.These variations can be interesting to the maple collector and enthusiast like all the people on this board and discussions, so we may have differences of opinion, but science is as close to truth as you will get in this case and point, and opinion is just that. They are all the same plant only with name varients and are illegitimate names, but to a collector and entusiast the plant varients are plants worthy of status, but passion must not cloud the mind nor judgement. Kindest regards, p
Mr.shep, According to science Dissectun nigrum and Ever red"...being erected by Cascio(c.1965)..." being illegitimate are the same plant, and Nigrum is not a dissectum it is a palmate and you are scientifically not correct in parentage. The fact is it would be highly unlikely a parent to this dissected cultivar but not impossible. There is nothing diffinitive of its parantage as it was found in open pollinated batch of seedings.You may wish to take this up with a dendrologist or botonist. You may be passionate and I am too but please do not confuse fact from ficticious wish in your long statement there is noting to support. It does not mean to say they are not worthy of collecting more than one specimen which may be slightly different from the other, as i wrote to spooky. As far as Inabe shindare five colours sometimes it is difficult to get the true to form cultivar, as in the book description, as parentage may be varient, and not true to the original parent which happens in clonal plants in the travel from one place to another and causing varients which is again part of the nomenclature issue because people think they have a new plant but is not, or they wish it was a new plant so they discovered which we all do wish, or embarrasingly can not sell this plant as the original parent because it is not true to form, or other reason. I do admire your passion. Best wishes, P I wish to add I will be posting on Hubbs red willow and Hupps willow which are dendrologically I believe the same plant but one is red and the other is a beautiful yellow which is one example which I have collected concerning this nomenclature identification and differentiation issue. The only difference is colour and under nomenclature rules is not sufficent for nomenclature status but as varients go it is a wonderful addition for collectors and passionate maple lover. I hope to have photographs before autumn colour sets in.I will post as a new thread on this if this is allowed because it is important as brought up in this thread to differenciate between nomenclature variation and cultivar status.It is also possible this plant will revert to its natural cultivar status colours next season-this variation may or may not be stable????which is true of any varient!!!
There are others around that know of what I wrote. I think you can find a few comments about my reservations with newly contrived naming conventions when there was a convention used in Europe back in the mid 1800's that was abided by for the most part, even in Japan as well. As we've seen or some of us know of several Maples may have been credited as originating from a specific source and later on we learn from talking to people that had the Maple that the originator was not the person that named it. A lot of olden day Maples were not meant to be named as so many were variant forms of a known plant, which runs contrary to today's line of thought which is to name everything - any old seedling can be named now and the Dendrologists and the Botanists are no help in this matter. Besides, a late nurseryman or two that were pioneers in Maples did have advanced degrees in Botany. I was mentored in Maples by one of them at a time when I already had two advanced degrees in other plant related fields. Yes, there are some Maples that had same names but most of them are of different forms such as one being a palmate form and the other being a dissectum. It is rather late in the game to be wanting to change the name of a cultivar today when that same plant has been cultivated and sold for almost 100 years. Just like the name nana in Pines has been overused to death and some people today feel that the name should no longer be used. I agree with them up to a point but to use an arbitrary year in the 50's as a reference point to state the all nanas are now considered misnamed is almost comical as many of the dwarf Pines had nana names before the 50's. I am not going to defend some of the naming of Maples but I chose to go with it rather than fight it. If a palmate form has the name Nigra and a dissectum also has the name Nigra then it was up to me to learn them, rather than dismiss them and not have a clue as to what those Maples are and how they are different from other red Maples, Forgot to mention this, Ever Red was a nursery name. The Ever Red trade name Maple has been cultivated and sold on the West Coast for over 50 years (Western Garden Book but you might have to backtrack a little from the recent editions to find the yearly edition where that information was listed in) which pre-dates your reference. Jim
Mr.shep, Anything which predates the International Rules of Nomenclature is an issue which related, and older latin or other names predating 1.Janruary 1959 are valid in accordance, and postdate also in accordance, but the international rules are the rules which are to be followed and concerning Dissectum nigrum this applies, as to all cultivar.There are still nomenclature confusions, and continues this does still cause confusion, however any names which predate this are held to their names and any varient named after 1959 are in accordance to these rules which are there to prevent further confusion and cause at least some clarity oin the issue. Any nursery person, botanist, or dendrologist with degree in the field know this, and if a person knowingly sells cultivar under pseudonyms is not doing cultivar,collectors and passionate maple lovers any favours, and going with it is not wise as it adds confusion further. These rules have a purpose and should be adhered to because it is important to have some clarity and learning also means being able to seperate a varient from a true cultivar. With the greatest respect I do believe science has not solved the problem of nomenclature but it is the best we have and until there is a way to seperate and clarify it is the best method to follow. Respectfully, P
I do have varients and under other names, eg. scolopendrifoliumwhich is the illegitimate name for Linearilobum, an old cultivar, and unoriginal the name may be it is the true name of the cultivar. these varients are: one which is green bark with green leaf and another which is red barked,with reddish orange with some underlying green and until they are named or clarified as different dendrologically I treat them as varients of the same plant. This does give me some comfort to know mother nature and cultivar have provided some wonderful varients and I do believe nomenclature should include a subsection which includes a rules for naming varients in respect with and to seperating them dendrologically from seperate cultivar. None the less they are a wonderful addition to the collection of collecting and enjoying these beautiful plants. Best wishes, P Perhaps someone going to the Maple Society forum may wish to bring up the issues presented here, and perhaps there will be a way to further clarify this important issue raised.A subsection under nomenclature rules and a way to clarify the nomenclature problems and differentials between cultivar status, names, and varients.
This is really great seeing so many old threads come back to life. I have palmate Nigrum M. I will be interested to see yours develop and how dark it gets. I will post mine tomorrow morning. Will also put it on your darkest maples thread.
Only problem i have with the diss nigrum is you wait all year for it to show it's super silver pubescent hairs , then and only if you are lucky you might get 10/12 days of silver hairs before it just becomes another "generic red" dissectum Few pictures of mine , same time again 2023 :):)
A bit like flowers that bloom for a couple of weeks only every year, but we still love to see them, if only briefly. Great closeups M.
25th April 2024 and my Dissectum Nigrum is still in a pot, I think another two years to get some good strong roots.
