Acer palmatum 'atropurpureum nana' ???

Discussion in 'Maples' started by ellenfix, May 10, 2005.

  1. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Vertrees' 2nd edition includes A. circinatum for comparative purposes. No mention of A. campestre noticed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2007
  2. spookiejenkins

    spookiejenkins Active Member

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    Kinda beating a dead horse here, but in Timber Press' Pocket Guide to Japanese Maples by J. D. Vertrees, copyright 2007, there is a section titled, "Other Acer Species and their Cultivars from Japan" beginning on page 191. The introductory text reads as follows: This chapter presents Japanese species and cultivars other than Acer palmatum...

    In this section of the book (that, please remember, is titled "JAPANESE MAPLES") there are 23 species discussed, highlighting notable cultivars of each. I do understand that referring to Acer species endemic to America or Europe as 'Japanese maples' is technically incorrect, but certain species and cultivars, as Vertrees puts it, "have been selected and grown by Japanese horticulturists for their special characteristics".

    Whether correct or not, many species other than palmatum are sold as Japanese maples; Acer circinatum 'Little Gem' is often lumped into this group for example.

    Apparently, the term "Japanese maple" has come to encompass a set of "special characteristics" that stretches a little beyond nomenclature. Whatever is okay with Vertrees is okay with me.

    I do understand the difference. I too have an IQ in the triple digits. I was simply trying to help a blogger in this forum understand the generality, and sometime misuse (if you will read my earlier post) of the term "Japanese maple". The blogger, named The Novice, I believe, was under the common misconception that his/her Acer palmatum was a "generic" or less valuable maple, or not a Japanese maple at all, because it is not a named cultivar.

    I was merely trying to be helpful. Gimme a little credit will ya? :) Can we stop with the spanking now?
     
  3. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Is the term "Japanese Maples" legit botanical nomenclature? Or have we a tempest in a teapot

    I believe, that in the horticultural vernacular, the meaning of "Japanese Maple" has changed over time. Today it seems the meaning is less precise than in the past.

    Whis4 following up on comment 17 ...what constitutes "Japanese Maples" under your typology?
     
  4. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The total of the introductory text reads as follows:
    This chapter presents Japanese species and cultivars other than Acer palmatum. It also includes non-Japanese species and cultivars, such as A.buergerianum and A.circinatum, which have been selected and grown by Japanese horticulturists for their special characteristics
    My comments were simply answering your question as to whether or not it would be appropriate to refer to these as 'Japanese maples'
    I made the point that it would not, because they are not Japanese maples
    There is little else to say .......
     
  5. spookiejenkins

    spookiejenkins Active Member

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    Thanks for watchin my back, Poetry.

    Next topic shall we?
     
  6. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Whis4 are you saying that cults like A. buergerianum: 'Akebono', 'Kyu den', 'Mino yatsubusa','Naruto kaede' and 'Mitsuba kaede' would/should not be considered Japanese Maples?

    Curious about your reasoning on this. Is endemic to Japan your criteria for inclusion?
     
  7. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Vertrees (Second edition) describes the accepted definition of 'Japanese maples' as the term for the cultivars of Acer palmatum and Acer japonicum, and states quite clearly that these two species (and their subspecies and varieties) comprise the 'Japanese maples' of the nursery industry
    All others become 'Maples from Japan'
    It is notable that he doesn't even include varieties of Acer shirasawanum, although my memory tells me that these used to be considered as Japonicum in any event
    He makes the point that serious dendrologists would be inclined towards all species of the genus Acer which are endemic to Japan and portions of neighbouring regions
    Yes ... I believe that endemic to Japan is one important criteria to consider when referring to Japanese maples
    However, like Katie, I am more than able to accept that what is good enough for Vertreees is good enough for me
    For that reason I believe that the varieties mentioned by you should not be considered as 'Japanese maples'
    Katie ... your obvious boundless enthusiasm has been infectious and refreshing and has been most welcome in this forum. I have always enjoyed your posts. I hope sincerely that I have not offended you in any way by answering your question in what might have seemed like a curt manner. If I did, you have my sincere apologies.
     
  8. spookiejenkins

    spookiejenkins Active Member

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    Thank you for that very thoughtful concern, Whis. I am not offended in any way and thank you for the kind words about my participation here. I am enthusiastic about maples and think its fantastic that such a forum exists where I can chat with folks from all over the world! That is a very cool thing.

    I am certainly no expert and so only post in response where I may be able to shed some light on a novice or intermediate concern. I always try to state that I am no authority and merely share my opinions and those hard facts that I can locate in a book, or have experienced first hand.

    There are some experts posting here, (deserving of great respect of course don't get me wrong on that point!), that seem to love to pounce on such layperson responses and explanations, though they may soar right over the head of the initial poster. Knowing what it is like for the average gardener, it can be a bit intimidating in here, so, if I feel I have something to offer a beginner, I always try to tailor my response to their specific needs and understanding. At least my intentions are always good.

    It is difficult to read fully into some responses, but such is the nature of e-mail enviornments, or "computer mediated communication". I have felt "taken over a knee" once or twice in here, but I do usually attempt to clarify my thought at least.

    I certainly don't mind the lively banter though and always appreciate a different opinion (although I hardly ever feel the need to change my own mind :) hee hee ).

    I do appreciate the sentiment, Whis. Thank you for taking the time to share it.

    Friends? :)
     
  9. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Ah Katie ... how could you not still be loved? :)
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Actually, only Maples that are palmatum, amoenum
    and matsumurae are the Japanese Maples in one
    sense, with the japonicums being the Full Moon
    Maples of Japan. At one time shirasawanum was
    considered to be a variety of japonicum and was
    written by Koidzumi and others as Acer japonicum
    var. shirasawanum
    . Some studies out of Japan
    considered shirasawanum a forma of japoncium
    until later on when Europe considered shirasawanum
    to be its own species. I learned of the golden Shirasawa
    Maple in an above light as when a couple of golden
    forms of Japonicum aureum were nestled in a few
    collections among imported Shirasawanum aureum
    from Holland in that the aureum forms could be
    distinguished by their leaf shapes, lobe counts and
    how the side lobes were held either exposing a
    triangular shape cut out area where the petiole
    attaches to the leaf or this attachment point is
    covered over by the side lobes. Another thing that
    can separate the two forms is that when we look at
    the side lobes of the shirasawanum if we draw an
    imaginary line from the top of the highest point on
    one side lobe we can imagine a horizontal straight
    line across to the other side lobe on the other side
    of the petiole. We cannot do this with a japonicum,
    although an old form of the forma macrophyllum
    Maple, not to be confused or intermixed with the
    Shirasawanum microphyllum plant (Delendick,
    1984), can come close but still the side lobes can
    cover over the petiole.

    In another sense I agree that all Maples indigenous
    to Japan, prior to their more recent acquisition by
    China and Korea, can be called Japanese Maples as
    well and then we can include the sieboldianum and
    buergerianum in with the shirasawanum, palmatum
    and the japonicums as well as a few others.

    The mentality of some of the members of another
    online Maple forum have infiltrated this forum and
    that altruism does detract from the overall benefit
    for some of the newer members in this forum. I like
    how the Citrus forum handles things a lot better for
    people asking newbie type questions about their
    Citrus. Then again some of those questions can be
    very difficult at times to answer as several times
    there is no clear cut answer as to why a tree drops
    its leaves but usually is a series of cultural factors
    that may have caused them to drop off early. We
    have some of the same scenarios at times with our
    Maples as well, usually with container grown plants
    but in ground plants are not immune to premature
    leaf loss during the growing season either.

    It seems the original Maple which constitutes
    the thread title has been overlooked. The nana
    form of atropurpureum was available in retail
    nurseries as far back as the early 70's. Today
    someone would probably want to give it a second
    or a new name if they had one. My third Maple
    back when I was in my latter days of high school
    was an Atropurureum nana purchased at a local
    retail nursery. Technically, this form left on its
    own roots will remain a dwarf form plant (6 feet
    tall or less, seldom is over 4 1/2 feet tall). After
    repeated and continual grafting this Maple can
    and did become a semi-dwarf in size for others
    later on (6-12 feet tall).

    "Nana" can make a fine landscape plant for
    around here given afternoon sun and wind
    protection in soils that are not alkaline.
    Saline soils are okay for it but soils with
    residual salts will make this Maple look
    rather unsightly with sunburned holes and
    later on wind tattered areas in the lobes as
    soon as the outside temperatures get over
    and are sustained at 90 degrees in lots of
    sun when grown in the Central Valley.
    Then again we can have that same problem
    with a lot of red Maples grown around here
    but is consistent with all members of the
    Nomura, Shojo, Nigrum, Rubrum and
    Atropurpureum group Maples that we have
    around here when given too much direct sun,
    exposed to afternoon winds and/or are planted
    in alkaline soils.

    It can be argued that neither the old standard
    Bloodgood (a blood-red Maple in the Spring,
    is not a black-red or a purple-red like many
    plants being sold worldwide as Bloodgood
    now are, nor is Bloodgood a two-color Maple
    in that the newer flushes of Spring growth are
    a different color than the older Spring growth
    was) and the old Atropurpureum nana are an
    atropurpureum. Atropurpureum nana is a
    member of the Nomura group of reds by the
    leaf sizes and leaf shapes, Spring leaf color,
    Summer leaf coloring and the Fall leaf color.
    More than the Atropurpureum group of reds
    will throw out a pubescence in the Spring
    emergence, some are silvery, some are white
    and some throw out hairs instead of the early
    pubescence on the topsides of the newly
    emerging leaves. People have to see a lot of
    these plants to know how the above groups
    of reds correspond to a particular plant and
    if it makes a certain someone feel better, none
    of us are experts with the red groups of Japanese
    Maples. People have seen the hairs on their
    Maples before but did not know which red
    group those hairs are consistent with as
    opposed to another red group that may
    have a silvery pubescence instead. We
    also have some green Maples that will
    show pubescence in the Spring and other
    green Maples that will have the hairs on
    the surface of the leaves. Some of the
    variegated forms can also have short
    lived hairs on the petioles before the
    leaves have fully expanded. One of
    the green palmates that will is Tsuma
    gaki, as is shown in a photo in another
    online Maple forum.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2007

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