Acer palmatum 'atropurpureum nana' ???

Discussion in 'Maples' started by ellenfix, May 10, 2005.

  1. ellenfix

    ellenfix Member

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    Help! I just purchased a nice, 30" tall maple that looks identical to a "Bloodgood" (blackish-red bark, large red serrated leaves) that was labeled as "acer palamtum atropurpureum nana". Of course no such cultivar actually exists; so, are there any guesses as to a small Bloodgood "clone" that this could possibly be?
     
  2. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Re: acer palmatum atropurpureum nana

    Perhaps you are thinking 'cultivariant' instead of 'clone', if it was a clone of 'Bloodgood' it would be a 'Bloodgood'. Anyway, there is one called 'Atropurpureum Novum', maybe the 'Nanum' is a mistake for 'Novum'. Maples for Gardens mentions it under 'Azuma murasaki'.
     
  3. amylongoria

    amylongoria Member

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    I just bought one of these also. How has yours done in the last couple of years? The leaves are turning green near the trunk of the tree. I thought it was supposed to be a red maple. The tag says Dwarf Red Japanese Maple Acer palmatum 'atropurpureum Nana'
     
  4. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Acer palmatum atropupureum nana simply means 'small red japanese maple'
    I don't think it is any type of 'cultivar' as such, simply probably a seedling from some sort of small red maple
    There seem to be loads of these trees being sold nowadays with fancy names to merit a higher price tag
    If it genuinely a dwarf maple then it is probably NOT from Bloodgood which is a tall growing form
     
  5. amylongoria

    amylongoria Member

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    I only paid $20 for my maple at Wal-Mart. The tag says it came from Simpson Nurseries, Monticello, FL. Most of it is red right now with the dark green leaves near the trunk of the tree and it's about 30" tall. The foilage is very delicate and dense. Some of the branches are curvy. I have it planted in a flower bed near the house and it's about 2' from the driveway and 2' from the house. I hope it stays little. The photo on the tag shows it to be small and wide. It also says it's for entryways, background, or lawn or patio tree.
     
  6. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    The dark green leaves would simply be because they are not getting the sun
     
  7. amylongoria

    amylongoria Member

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    Thank you for your insight. I thought that might be why they were green. I have a little gardening experience but this is my first home and so I'm really excited to learn all I can so my yard can be as beautiful as what you have created.
     
  8. the novice

    the novice Member

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    Interesting things are being said about these trees... I also just purchased one today, for roughly $15. I have to say that I am a bit disappointed because it sounds like this is not a true Japanese maple (?)

    As for care goes, I am zone 7B, would it be safe to go ahead and plant it in the ground? Do I need to cover it with plastic when the first signs of frost emerge?

    Does anyone have any idea as to how large it will grow? What about the root structure, could it possibly cause damage to the foundation of the house if I plant to close?

    I also would like to post a few pictures of the one I purchased because many of the leaves have spots on them that appear to be dried out, quite possibly a lack of water or too much sun, but I would like to get the opinion of other members that are knowledgeable in this area.
     
  9. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hello Novice,

    There are many, many forms of Japanese maple. Red, green, variegated, etc. Leaf shape varies widely. Why do you think yours is not a Japanese maple? Can you send us a photo?

    These trees are perfectly hardy in your zone, needs no winter protection. Good drainage is the most important.

    Typically they don't have invasive roots. How large depends on the type or cultivar. Was there a name on the tag where you bought it?

    At this late season it's not unusual for the leaves to be getting tatty, that may not indicate a problem. You'll find out more next spring.

    -E
     
  10. the novice

    the novice Member

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    Just judging from the statements being made in the previous posts, causes the word generic to come into mind, not that generic is bad but I was hoping to get a nice species of Japanese maple.

    I'm sure its some form Japanese maple I was just getting a little discouraged but what can I expect for $9.

    I willl post a few pictures up in a few hours, work is calling my name.
     
  11. spookiejenkins

    spookiejenkins Active Member

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    From what I know, the term "Japanese maple" generally refers to any and all Acer palmatum or Acer japonicum. Many other species are often covered under this umbrella term as well... Acer shirasawanum, Acer circinatum, Acer campestre, etc. Pick up any book concerning Japanese maples and flip to the index. You'll see what I mean. Just because your tree might be a seedling and not some chosen cultivar with a name that garners royalties, does not mean your tree isn't a Japanese maple.

    Give your little tree a chance - you'll love it!
     
  12. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    But A. circinatum is North American and A. campestre European .
     
  13. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I've never heard of A. campestre referred to as a Japanese maple. None the less there are lots of interesting cultivars. If no where near as many as palmatum... Circinatum is sometimes grouped with the "japanese maples" because of it's close relation to A. japonicum, in spite of the fact that it comes from North America.

    If we only count maples truly endemic to Japan we can't even include A. buergerianum, right?

    Still I think we can assume with plenty of confidence that Novice has bought some form of A. palmatum. This is what is usually referred to as a japanese maple in the nursery trade. Whether a named cultivar or not, there is not reason that it won't make a beautiful tree.

    -E
     
  14. spookiejenkins

    spookiejenkins Active Member

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    Well, I am certainly no expert on the subject and appreciate information. I can only report what I know as a collector and student of maples. It seems, as I expressed earlier, that the term "Japanese maple" gets attached to many many maples, sometimes frivolosly in the attempt of extra sales. I named the species that I did (circinatum and campestre)after flipping to the index of Vertrees, Pocket Guide to Japanese Maples. Cultivars of those species are described in the section titled, "Other Acer Sepcies and their Cultivars from Japan". Would it be inappropriate to refer to these as JMs?
     
  15. Nexus

    Nexus Member

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    I've grown several Acer palmatums from seed, and they are all very similar to their parents. The seedlings from a 'Bloodgood' have large, purple leaves. The seedlings from a 'Sango Kaku' have red bark. There's really nothing wrong with seedlings. The reason that cultivars are so popular is that you know exactly what you're going to get, from leaf size, color, and shape to bark color and texture to overall size. Seedlings, on the other hand, are like children. Each one is unique. You never quite know what you're going to get.

    Another thing to consider is that all of the named cultivars originally came from a seedling.
     
  16. spookiejenkins

    spookiejenkins Active Member

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    Great reminder Nexus. That was kinda my point in response to Novice's concerns of being ripped off, or having a "generic" maple. Just because it may not be a selected cultivar does not mean its not great - or that it is incorrect to call it a Japanese maple. Seedlings can be very exciting. I like the experiment of their similarities and differences to their parent tree. You're right Nexus, without the delightful mutations of seedlings, we wouldn't have any cultivars!
     
  17. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Yes .. I think it would indeed be inappropriate, as they are not Japanese maples
    If you have another look at the chapter you refer to, in the introduction, you will see " it also includes non Japanese species and cultivars, such as A. buergerianum and A.circinatum ......"
     
  18. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Spookie, I certainly agree -- and tried to say so, but perhaps poorly -- that seedlings or plants of unknown cultivar can make lovely maples.

    However, and without meaning to be didactic, I don't see any place either in Vertrees 3rd or the new "Pocket Guide" where campestre is mentioned in the "Other Species ... fom Japan" section. The index finds campestre only in the section of miyabei as being related. Is it possible that there is already another edition??

    I stand by my statement (annoyingly perhaps, sorry). I don't think campestre is referred to as a "Japanese maple", or at least not widely enough that I've come across it.

    I'd be happy to be shown wrong, of course. ;)

    -E
     
  19. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Yes, or a sport from a cultivar. Agree it is best to keep the true JMs separate, for the reasons previously mentioned and this being a botanical site. Haven't heard of A. circinatum being referred to as a JM, it's native here and referred to as vine maple. The various names and spellings of the JM cultivars can be confusing enough. Spookie, I think most would agree we're all students.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2007
  20. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    In The Hillier Manual of Trees & Shrubs "Those referred to as Japanese maples will be found under A. palmatum and A. japonicum." Under A. palmatum, the same work calls that species Japanese maple; the Manual does not give that common name for A. japonicum under its respective entry.

    Over here Japanese maple tends to be used for A. palmatum alone, when I first saw British references including A. japonicum I saw it as another one of those trans-Atlantic differences.
     
  21. the novice

    the novice Member

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    Here are a couple of photos of the maple in question. As you all will see its still a baby. I am considering keeping it potted until I find a suitable place for it.

    We just had our first frost this morning, I hope it didn't get damaged.
     

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  22. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hi Novice, if it lives it will have been a great buy at $9! Hard to tell with the leaves browning but it looks similar to A. palmatum 'Osakazuki'. In leaf shape and striations on the trunk. This very popular maple is famous for its flame red autumn colouring.

    In any case it is some form of Acer palmatum and if it takes it will no doubt make a nice plant. BTW the frost didn't damage it, it's quite hardy. Still it will be happier in the ground than in the pot, so long as drainage is assured.

    Good find, and good luck!

    -E
     
  23. the novice

    the novice Member

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    That is good news, I will take a few more photos of the leaves that are still vibrant and the trunk to help with its identification.

    I do have a drainage question, lets say I dig down about 4 or 5 feet and line the bottom of the hole with drainage rock, then fill with soil, following with the tree. Will this be sufficent in helping with drainage?

    BTW - I am looking at a spot that is slightly inclined to assist with the water not standing around the tree.
     
  24. emery

    emery Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    In case I wasn't clear, I don't mean to suggest that you have an Osakazuki, or that it will be possible to identify. Really difficult especially with a young plant. Also IIRC Osakazuki has 7 lobes, looks like you have 5 there.

    As for drainage, that's a lot of work for this little guy. Here's what I'd do. Dig a hole the size of the pot and somewhat deeper. Fill with water. Let drain, then fill again. If the second time it drains away in 15 minutes, you're fine. If 2 hours later there's still water in the hole, you need to worry.

    Your idea of a slope is good, but also if the soil is poorly draining you can build a mound on top of it, rather than digging in. This seems to be the currently favoured idea.

    -E
     
  25. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    I can see how Spookie ended up putting A. campestre on her list. It is indexed in Vertrees because it is mentioned in the section on A. miyabei as being related to it. But it is not listed as a Japanese maple. A. circinatum is listed in that chapter, however, although he admits it is not native to Japan but to the PNW, because it is "a close relative of" palmatum and japonicum and can hybridize with them. So Vertrees is (was) no purist himself!
     

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