Acer palmatum 'Ariadne' Fall Colors

Discussion in 'Maples' started by mjh1676, Oct 3, 2004.

  1. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I was hoping I could encourge someone growing 'Ariadne' to post some fall color pictures over in the gallery under the "Ariadne thread."

    I have two plants labled as this cultivar from two separate sources, both reliable, but they are distinctly different. Both are 1st year grafts and their summer foliage was not enough for me to dicipher what is what. Actually, neither of them really appear to be the cultivar, but I am optimistic. I am hoping the growth on 2yr wood will be more descript.

    I have one that is starting to show all yellow fall color with green veining and the other yet to show any, but will likey have red fall color. No seeds producted this year.

    Help or comment would be appreciated.
     
  2. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Michael:

    For the relatively newer varieties of Japanese Maples
    it may be difficult to learn on our own who has the right
    cultivar. As an example, I've seen lots of Japonicum
    Vitifolium grown in Oregon, yet there was only just a
    couple of sources that I felt had the right plant. To
    the discriminating person seeing the variance in the
    sizing of the leaves may leave us dumbfounded. Then
    when we see what we feel is the right Maple we begin
    to feel better about things until we see another plant
    with Grape sized leaves and we wonder what is going
    on here?

    First year grafts generally do not color up the way they
    will in later years. We generally need to grow these
    for 2-3 years in the same location to get a better idea
    as to the coloring schemes. The last 4 years we've had
    an abnormal weather cycle here in that it has not been
    cold enough to knock off all of the leaves off our Roses.
    In years past it was not unusual at all to see Roses with
    no leaves on them in December but we've not see that
    in almost 5 years here. Even our Almond trees still
    have straggler leaves on them from the past growing
    season, even when they are in bloom the next Spring.

    As a side note:

    I am kicking myself as I wanted to grow a Macadamia
    here so I planted a 15 gallon sized tree in the ground in
    1988. In the Winter of 1990 we got down to 6 degrees.
    Temperatures down to 24 degrees is supposed to kill it
    outright. The tree got chewed up, so I pruned back the
    dead wood to the live wood in the Spring but the tree
    did not leaf out again until June and then we got hit with
    14 degree weather in December and that did the tree in.
    Had I had that same tree and planted it 5 years ago in the
    ground I probably would have a pretty nice tree today that
    I would have a decent chance of saving, even if the temps
    got down to 6 degrees again in the next year or so. You
    will need cooler night time temps than you have been
    getting in Medford in recent years starting in September
    for you to see the better Fall coloring on most of your
    Maples.

    I think you will have to wait at least until next year
    to see a better example of coloring on your Ariadne.
    It could be that you do indeed have two separate
    Maples if you are seeing dissimilar characteristics
    on them now but you will have a much better idea
    as to whether that is true or not next year and the
    year following.

    Jim
     
  3. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks Jim:

    I will certainly wait, as I imagined it would be the necessary step in solving my little mystery.

    I have not seen much fall color as you hinted, but with a few cool nights this past week, I have seen some leaves suddenly brown as if they were responding to frost temperatures, but no frost. That has been a unique display. I have a hunch that it will be frost again this year that gets the leaves, bypassing much of the fall color that I have waited for.

    As far as the Ariadne, it was the spring leaves that turned on one graft, while the summer leaves are still there and show no fall color. Acutally the lower leaves have dropped now, all dozen or so (a small tree it is). So I will wait to see what the rest do.

    Maybe if I have some time I will take picture or two of the Vitifolium I picked up at Greer this summer. We'll see if it measures up!

    Thanks for your response, it has been a bit quiet around here lately..might make for a long winter.

    Michael
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Michael:

    There are several forms of Japanese Maples that have to
    be closely monitored for a few years so that we can see
    the characteristics that we either were told we should
    see or read about on our own.

    As far as the Vitifoliums that I saw when I wanted one
    for myself, I was more interested in the history of the
    plant, where (who) did the stock plant come from or in
    certain cases where did the wood come from. I felt more
    comfortable knowing the sourcing of the Vitifolium that
    I wanted for me.

    Personally, I think there will be some problems knowing
    what we have with the many new and newer introductions
    of the reticulated Maples. Soon after there was thinking
    of doing tissue culture on Maples back in 1983, some
    people looked into using Colchicine on their Maples
    hoping to induce variances. Just reading a few, venerable
    now, 'High Times' articles on Colchicine treatments on
    Cannabis sativa and indica seed gave rise to some people
    in Oregon that it may be something they could work on
    for Japanese Maples. I know of one nursery person that
    invested some special consideration (time and money) in
    having someone else legally (which required a University
    to do the work at that time) conduct the initial experiments.
    The original F1 generation on the reticulated Maples all
    died soon after they were germinated so some of us were
    asked what can be done to lessen the losses. Dilute the
    concentration and add in a growth hormone was my answer
    at the time. A few years later in two University labs that I
    know of there was a breakthrough in that the treated seeds
    did indeed live this time and then the trails of growing these
    seedlings became fun to some (far out) but to others became
    a nightmare. People wanted to see immediate changes in
    the reticulated Maples of which the only veritable change
    was that the leaves became larger and misshapen but there
    was no immediate effect on the variegation. We were asked
    what we thought and both Don and I said to keep the Maples
    alive and you should see some changes in the variegation
    over time in the next 3-5 years or so. Well, true to many
    Japanese Maples the changes in the coloring did indeed
    show up within the above stated time frame after the initial
    treatments. Then, the hard part was propagating these
    plants as they, at first, did not do well as graft material
    on seedling understock. Then the thought was to
    germinate seeds from the treated seed parents and see
    what the newer seedlings looked like. It was about
    this time that I lost touch with the experiments on
    the following generations but I did expect to see
    offspring sooner rather than later. It was our feeling
    at the time that we had enough variance in the variegated
    Maples and that there were several forms of reticulated
    Maples that others had not picked up on yet such as a
    Pink, Purple, White, Red (actually a Burgundy) forms
    of Kasagiyama, what else did we need a Yellow, Gold
    or Cream forms also? Our thinking was that Goshiki
    was possible and that to us was the form of Kasagiyama
    we thought would set the world on fire. We do not have
    it yet to my knowledge. Aka and Shigitatsu Sawa also
    had variances in color in their forms and even today
    people have not picked up on them either, so why mess
    with reticulated Maples when others do not know the
    old forms yet? Well, granted our view was archaic and
    probably was not meant to be the mainstream in Maple
    thinking but we felt the old forms of Maples, aside from
    our feeling that they needed to be preserved over time
    were the more adaptable Maples having been around
    much longer so we felt that the projected newer Maples
    had a lot to prove to us before we would have any interest
    in them. So we psyched ourselves out by thinking too
    much and later determined we had no interest at all in
    them. The coloring of Ariadne is not new, most of the
    old guard in Maples would not have named it as it is not
    that much different than the Red form of Shigitatsu Sawa
    that some people had in Japan but only less than a handful
    of people ever had here and only one of them propagated
    it that I know of. I'd like to have one just to watch it for
    the next 10 years or so and see for myself, it is that much
    different from the old Maple?

    I may be a dinosaur in today's world for newer offerings
    of Maples but I still feel those new Maples need to be
    closely monitored over time. I've seen forms of Japanese
    Maples that were here today and gone tomorrow so I tend
    to want to know the long term viability of the Maple and
    how long the interest will stay high when there are other
    similar Maples that have been around and have been grown
    elsewhere for a while now.

    Jim
     
  5. Thanks as always Jim. Sorry for the delay as your reply stimulates great interest as always.

    You have mentioned the different forms of Aka Shigitasu sawa before and it is always in the back of mind when I comtemplate my issue with these two trees. The different forms of given cultivar is certainly not a real mainstream idea when it comes to discussing different varieties of maples, or given cultivar with multiple names. It certainly would make things a little easier to give a cultivar name and addendum of sorts for a slight variation rather than an entirely different name, but thats all neither here nor there or reality.

    I will leave the tissue culture part of this somewhat alone, but I was wondering if the induction of recessive characteristics or the induction of unstable variation though chemical processes creates viable long-term product. It is one thing to select a seedling, as there is a good chance it will have healthy growth characeristics. But, simply having a uniquely verigated foliage, doesn't create a health specimen. As you point out many will die. If someone incuced a unique verigated characteristic, how long does one watch a specimen before classifying it as stable and viable. 3 years? Does it die in 7years? Will is be weak and more at risk for disease? Don't know, but it would be a shame to see the market flooded with trees altered through tissue culture-we can't keep them straight now.

    In any case, I'll let this thread be for now. Just of the heck of it, here are a couple fall color pics of one on the trees, YES finally some fall color. I was at Greer the beginning of the week and WOW the green dissectums were in BRIGHT orange splendor. I don't think I will get that here, but I can hope:)
     
  6. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Thanks as always Jim. Sorry for the delay as your reply stimulates great interest as always.

    You have mentioned the different forms of Aka Shigitasu sawa before and it is always in the back of mind when I comtemplate my issue with these two trees. The different forms of given cultivar is certainly not a real mainstream idea when it comes to discussing different varieties of maples, or given cultivar with multiple names. It certainly would make things a little easier to give a cultivar name and addendum of sorts for a slight variation rather than an entirely different name, but thats all neither here nor there or reality.

    I will leave the tissue culture part of this somewhat alone, but I was wondering if the induction of recessive characteristics or the induction of unstable variation though chemical processes creates viable long-term product. It is one thing to select a seedling, as there is a good chance it will have healthy growth characeristics. But, simply having a uniquely verigated foliage, doesn't create a health specimen. As you point out many will die. If someone incuced a unique verigated characteristic, how long does one watch a specimen before classifying it as stable and viable. 3 years? Does it die in 7years? Will is be weak and more at risk for disease? Don't know, but it would be a shame to see the market flooded with trees altered through tissue culture-we can't keep them straight now.

    In any case, I'll let this thread be for now. Just of the heck of it, here are a couple fall color pics of one on the trees, YES finally some fall color. I was at Greer the beginning of the week and WOW the green dissectums were in BRIGHT orange splendor. I don't think I will get that here, but I can hope:)
     

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  7. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Michael:

    There is a much wider range of color forms than what
    we are normally used to seeing. Some of the colors
    I've mentioned for Kasagiyama were indeed selected
    out by only a couple of specialty nurseries and then
    grown on and propagated as a color form. The color
    we most equate with Kasagiyama is the Burgundy
    color and that is the most common color of that series.
    The lighter shaded red and the white came from Japan.
    Don Kleim selected out the pink and the purple forms.

    We still have a problem with people not knowing the
    difference between the Shigitatsu sawa series and
    Kasagiyama. Most of the time during the year, not
    so much in Summer though, we can tell them apart
    by the leaf structure & shape and how the serration
    on the edges of the leaves are. The growing habits
    on these plants are pretty much the same though.

    I was rather delighted this year to have purchased
    Aka Shigitatsu sawa again but what pleased me more
    was that the form I got was Beni. I knew from what
    Don told me years ago that some people in Washington
    had the pink form from way back and so I gave it a shot
    sight unseen and got lucky. I have not seen too many
    pink forms in Oregon but if there are any still around
    they can be traced back to Arthur Wright and Richard
    Bush in Canby.

    Oregon was the place to be for us to see Maples at
    various stages of the growing season. Once we get
    a normal, or at least a more usual weather pattern
    you will see your Maples color up much better. I
    hate to tell you this but your plants will probably
    need to be planted in the ground rather than grown
    in containers for you to see the better Fall colors.
    We need the earlier in September night time cooling
    to see the Maples color up. I've seen certain
    Japonicums here turn almost a blood red in early
    October and then by mid November had leaves on
    them that were almost a royal purple in color.

    We saw in whis4ey's autumn color post that Viridis
    can turn a brilliant orange. That is what I saw at Mr.
    Vertrees' nursery when I went there just to see the
    Fall colors of his Maples. We never see Viridis like
    that here but we do see Waterfall color up well in
    most years instead. You will see Viridis turn its
    brilliant orange in time where you are.

    We may not see good or great Fall coloring here year
    in and year out but there are times when certain Maples
    will knock people's socks off and for us it has always
    been the Japonicums and the Tridents that can do it.
    My cutting grown form of Naruto kaede from Koto
    Matsubara turned a salmon pink in the Fall in the past
    and the top leaves on my tree are just now turning an
    orange color. In the last few years I got to see a strong
    golden yellow but this year the orange-pink may be back.
    If it does indeed turn the allover salmon pink I'll be sure
    to take a few pics of the tree this time around.

    Jim
     
  8. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Fall Colors

    It was definately the Viridis that first got our attention at Greer and I also noticed Waterfall as you indicated. The bright orange had my wife asking me over and over if we had that tree. I had to answer yes, but the fire orange was breathtaking. They also had a few nice specimens of Germaine's Gyration that had the bright orange. This one of her favorites, but to me it looks a lot like Green Cascade with just a bit larger leaves. I told her if I ever see a one gal. tree I will get it.

    The Osakazuki's also looked great. I was a bit jealous as I don't think I will get any color out of my tree this year. We were fortunate to see Oregon Sunset in fall color and on you recommendation got one. The blend of pink with the red was a great contrast on the leaves. The tree kind of reminds me of Burgundy Lace. Our tree buying was cut a bit short though as we ran into a labeling conundrum in the greenhouse with the dissectums.....

    Anyway..it was nice to see all the trees in fall color.

    You were lucky enough to find a Beni shigitasu sawa...since we discussed one of my trees possibly being this cultivar, I have tried to research a little, but one really doesn't find much. What happened to cause the Beni form to fall out of the trade? It seems as though it might be one of the better forms. Was it a matter of th parent plants becoming scarce or the more preferred form becoming available?

    I am working on planting my trees, ha, ha. But they keep multiplying faster than they can be planted:) I am happy to have my Purple Ghost planted as I look forward to monitoring it as it is a new, but outstanding tree. I'll keep working on planting. I know the trees display better characteristics in many cases and planting should improve their longevity. Maybe I can buy the neighbors lot.

    Michael
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Hi Michael:

    Osakazuki can be an enigma at times for Fall color.
    I have two forms of it and both will turn red in the
    Fall but one of them not for very long. The one
    form that stays red longer throws out some pink
    leaves every now and then. Don was with me when
    I bought that Maple. I have one branch with all pink
    leaves on it. The branch did the same thing last year
    also but as it continued to grow this year, rather than
    die out like I expected it would, that branch still has
    not produced a green leaf. Oh, if that were another
    plant I just know people would be taking cuttings off
    of that sport and hoping that the color stays. I'll see
    what happens next year.

    I'll put you in touch with the guy that sold me a Beni.
    He also has another surprise you might be interested
    in and that is a pink Kasagiyama. I know where that
    one had to originate from. I just felt that the Maple
    was coming back home and for sentimental reasons
    I was rather pleased to have it. The Beni form does
    show just a hint of red but only a hint. The base color
    of the leaves aside from the green veins are a pinkish
    white. The coloring will fade out to green later but in
    contrast to Aka there is no doubt which one is Beni.
    These forms are not new and they have not necessarily
    died out it is just that we have lumped them together to
    be sold as either a Kasagiyama or an Aka Shigitatsu
    sawa but they are decidedly more pink instead.

    Are we going to have to be concerned about you
    having OCMB (obsessive, compulsive, Maple
    behavior)? I've been through it. I have Maples
    allover the place such as the misses home, a
    cousins yard, my best friend has my dwarf
    collection, the next door neighbor has my
    Oregon Sunset, Orangeola and my Octopus.
    My Filifera purpurea (we transplanted it 11
    years ago) is in an garden estate along with
    my Koto Ito Komachi and several of Don's
    Maples. I figured that all I needed was the
    wood for when we start grafting these critters
    but I got a little carried away myself years ago.
    I felt these needed to be planted in the ground
    so I planted them in various yards. Let others
    enjoy the beauty of these plants. I still have
    Maples here to keep me company.

    The best Fall color Japonicums we had were two
    Osakazukis that came into the nursery from Koichiro
    Wada back in the early 60's. We were always confused
    with those two Maples as the plants had little in common
    with a Palmatum Osakazuki. Toichi Domoto and Koto
    Matsubara both confirmed they were the real deal for us
    but neither would tell us how they knew them to be the
    right plant. They were a mystery for us. Don gave one
    to Toichi and the other is planted in the estate garden
    mentioned above.

    Omurayama is another Maple that has its moments here
    for us. Some years it is spectacular and other years it
    is far from it. A lot depends on when the cold comes
    and how long it stays cool without a real cold frost.
    For us we will see the color change and then we get
    hit with a couple of heavy frosts and that is it for the
    Fall color as the trees will drop their leaves rather
    quickly afterwards.

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2004

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