Acer japonicum 'Taki-no-gawa

Discussion in 'Maple Photo Gallery' started by Elmore, Jan 14, 2004.

  1. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    North Alabama USA
    Acer japonicum 'Taki-no-gawa'

    Here is an Acer japonicum that I have recently been producing. Nothing spectacular but it makes a good sized tree with nice medium size leaves of a good green color. It practically grafts itself.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 31, 2004
  2. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    North Alabama USA
    A friend's 'Taki-no-gawa'

    Here is a picture of a friend's 'Taki-no-gawa'. Photo made yesterday,4-12-04.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Hi Elmore:

    The problem with "oldtimers" is that we tend to forget
    things we once knew like it was the back of our hand.
    I know the difference between the Japonicum and the
    Palmatum forms but I have to rethink which one is
    which as I knew them as being Takinogawa and
    Takinokawa. I believe the Takinokawa is the Palmatum
    that I once knew but I cannot be positive about that at
    the moment.

    Jim
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    A quick notation:

    I believe there is no mention of Takinokawa in our
    books but that is how I learned the Palmatum form
    as being named. The part that escaped me was the
    'kawa' which means within bark, so I had to do some
    recollection and then realized the largest size plant
    I've seen of the Palmatum form was a 5 gallon. I
    cannot be sure if the Palmatum form had white
    striations in the bark or not. Perhaps someone can
    fill in that blank for me but the leaves of the Palmatum
    and the Japonicum are not the same as the Palmatum
    form leaves have 5-7 lobes and are much more deeply
    divided and the Japonicum has 7 lobes and is a
    more palmate shaped leaf (all from memory).

    Jim
     
  5. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    North Alabama USA
    Large Acer japonicum 'Taki-no-gawa

    Here is a large 'Taki-no-gawa', at least 15'-18' in height. It is the dormant tree in the center. Next time I visit I'll make a picture of it in leaf. Jim, grow Ginkgo trees for memory. lol
     

    Attached Files:

  6. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    Maybe we can see the palmatum form here, sold to me as Acer japonicum 'Takinogawa'.

    The leaves are very thin, paper thin to say the least and it is a very upright compact tree. The plant I have came to me in a 2gal can by stands about 4ft tall and about 1-2 wide. The only marginal characteristic is the slight cupping or depression in the leaves at the petiole.

    The stock plant has resided in the collection of the grower for over 20 years.

    MJH
     

    Attached Files:

  7. mendocinomaples

    mendocinomaples Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    NW CA
    Hi Michael,

    I am not familar with this culitvar, but after looking at your photos the plant looks more like a pseudosieboldianum rather than a plamatum or japonicum! From what I have observed, japonicums are only slightly pubescent on their leaves and petioles. From your photos of Taki-no-gawa, it appears that there is a lot of pubescence on the stems and leaves.

    I have a hard time with A. j. ogurayama being aligned with the japonicums too. It also looks to me to be a pseudosieboldianum forma.

    robert
     
  8. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    Hi Robert,

    This tree shares characteristics of leaf form and growth to both of the trees I am growing as Ogurayama, all three slightly different.

    All three have slight cupping and I have see the hairs on the petiole persist on two of the forms. One sold to me as shirasawanum and two as japonicum.

    The smallest of the tree forms in growth and leaf size I have always felt was sieboldianum or if we bring it into the mix, pseudosieboldianum, but I would not know how to use that form correctly to classify.

    What we can see here are some likely very old trees that are coming back to light and it seems we are not quite sure what to call them. It may even seem that the knowledge needed to sort it out is a bit fuzzy.

    Glad you noticed the hairs--so far we are in pretty close agreement. I used the idea that it might be palmatum to get the tree into this thread hoping that I could get some good feedback. I am going to lean japonicum (which variety exactly I am not sure) on this one for now, but there is definately likey to be a sieboldianum form of Ogurayama and maybe other japonicums being sold today.

    I love the form of the form of these trees and I think they would make great landscape trees, while not spectacular and flashy as some of the newer introductions, they are outstanding in their own way.

    Michael
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    There are several forms of japonicum that will have
    the pubescence on the petioles. There is a difference
    between hairs and pubescence on a petiole.

    Years ago I bought a 'Takinogawa' out of Oregon.
    The original Maple came in from Japan and then
    went to California where offspring was grafted
    and then was outlet in Oregon and later elsewhere.
    My plant will show characteristics of both 'Meigetsu'
    and 'O taki' in that the newer leaves look very much
    like a 'Meigetsu' and the leaves on older wood look
    very much like an 'O taki'. The difference of my Maple
    and the others is how the leaves are arranged in that
    the leaves of my plant are noticeably layered in whorls
    at the tips of the stems. There is also a difference in
    petiole color most of the year that separates this Maple
    from a 'Meigetsu' and an 'O taki' as the rich pink
    petiole of 'Takinogawa' will last longer in a growing
    season before the petiole turns an aocha - a yellow
    green in color. Number of lobes means little in that
    my plant can have as few as 7 lobes on the newest
    growth and as many as 11, sometimes 13 from leaves
    on the oldest wood. My plant does have a pubescence
    on the petioles of the newer leaves and the pubescence
    will stay for a couple of months until burned off by
    sunlight.

    I have two forms of aconitifolium that will have pubescence
    on the newest growth tips and twigs, yet have what I call
    hairs on the petioles. The relative, current thinking that
    hairs on the petioles as being exclusively a sieboldianum
    or even a pseudosieboldianum trait just flew out the window
    if we will pay enough attention to our current aconitifoliums.
    'Ogurayama' will have the same thing as most of the
    aconitifolium forms will have in regards to the pubescence
    on the newer growth and the hairs on the petioles with the
    same color of the petioles as several forms of the japonicums
    will have. To say that 'Ogurayama' is now a sieboldianum
    due to the hairy pubescence on the petioles is complete
    nonsense as we see it in several forms of the better known
    japonicums as opposed to the not as well known forms of
    sieboldianums.

    The dilemma we have today is more so who told us what
    the Maple was that we bought. I would want to know who
    taught the person that told you the Maple was a 'Takinokawa'
    or 'Ogurayama' or a 'Sode no uchi' as it leads to credibility
    with me and certainly would have had a lot more relevance
    to the people that taught Maples to me. There are some
    people today that are considered quite knowledgeable in
    Maples that still do not know much of the basics of these
    plants. Without a strong background in the old school
    Japanese views, they just aren't going to know a whole
    lot in my mind, even though some of them can play a
    pretty good game.

    Sieboldianum in a warm climate will have noticeably
    thinner leaves than a japonicum will. The color of
    the undersides of the leaves was used at one time in
    Japan by botanists to separate out Siebold's Maple
    from japonicum forms. I've been confused for a long
    time with 'Lovett'. We got ours in the nursery as being
    a japonicum of which I see japonicum traits but I also
    see sieboldianum traits as well. The hairs on the
    petioles is common with both Maples so we have
    to look at the structure, color and shapes of the leaves
    to have a better idea as to which one this Maple is.
    When I read what some Europeans see in this Maple
    I tend to know why they feel that way for it being a
    sieboldianum but I also see japonicum traits, such as
    the trunk color, the coloring of the old and new bark
    and the formation of the branches, that are just not
    mentioned any more. I still feel that if we do not
    have conclusive evidence that this Maple is a
    sieboldianum that it has to default back to what the
    Maple was thought to originally be when it was first
    sold and that is as a japonicum. It has to remain a
    japonicum until we have better reasoning than what
    we have so far to call this one a sieboldianum and
    be definitive about it.

    Here is another problem that we have in Maples and
    that is the Maple shown here has been around for
    20 years and it is not fully understood what the Maple
    is. I'd need to see it over time in a growing season but
    I can state that it is not 'Takinogawa', nor is this Maple
    the palmatum 'Takinokawa'. As of these photos with
    the shapes of the leaves, the petiole color and the
    thinness of the leaves, this Maple looks closer to being
    sieboldianum to me. Not a pseudosieboldinaum at all
    as the petiole color, the number of lobes and leaf color
    is all wrong for this one to be that Maple.

    Jim
     
  10. Kaitain4

    Kaitain4 Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Dickson, TN
    Just got in a nice specimen. I am blown away by the beauty of this cultivar!!
     

    Attached Files:

  11. sasquatch

    sasquatch Active Member

    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    PNW, USA
    May 2009
     

    Attached Files:

  12. amazingmaples

    amazingmaples Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    snohomish
    Here is the spring color for 2012
     

    Attached Files:

  13. rufretic

    rufretic Active Member

    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    marengo usa
    Here is mine.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Worldly_Wrangler

    Worldly_Wrangler Member

    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    Cashmere, WA
    New growth on my ‘Taki-no-gawa’ in September! It may experience dieback this winter, but in the meantime I’m enjoying the beautiful shrimp color.
     

    Attached Files:

    LoverOfMaples and emery like this.

Share This Page