Japanese Maples, Bugs, and Insecticides

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Acer palmatum 'Crazy', Jun 1, 2004.

  1. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years of Activity

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    Hi, i live in the southeast and we have a big problem with Japanese Beetles defoilated japanese maples. They are starting to show up and EAT my trees and other ornamentals.

    I saw a post from Mr.Shep saying go ahead and use BugBGone on a thread earlier.

    I was wondering if he and others could expound a little about there knowledge on using varying insecticides and applying them with there Acer palmatums. What things might hurt the tress and how. Any brands or chemicals work better. Any safer to use with Acer's. Methods to apply them?

    Any advice would be greatly approeciated as i get ready for battle.

    Thanks
     
  2. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    Hi 'Crazy':

    Geez, Japanese Beetles of all things. I might be
    the right person for you to talk to about insecticides
    but I cannot tell you what to do. You are out of my
    jurisdiction with you being in Georgia and the best
    chemical controls for that insect are all banned here
    in California. Not only that but if I were to mention
    those controls by name the UBC would be sent into
    orbit, considering their non-spray policy. So would
    a few people here but those sprays are used in various
    states and yours may be one of them. I strongly
    suggest you talk to people in your State Department
    of Agriculture as to what you can use for that insect.

    Jim
     
  3. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years of Activity

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    Thanks for the reply.
    Yes spraying is not one of my favorite things, but once you see trees devoured you can began to look for answers.

    Alot of people use beetle traps. They contain a phermone smell and attract them into a bag that traps them. But most agriculture sources i have read say they are useless for small homeowners. They attract more to the area, and they usually stop at a tree before finding the trap.
    Some pre treatments exist for the grubs, but same problem. The beetles fly and travel well. You may not have breed any, but they will just come from the next field of grass. Which i have a pasture that cows graze in, so i have a ready supply of bugs froim the ground.

    There are several things that eradicate them from trees and roses. I seem to have 3 favorite things to eat. My maples, crape myrtles, and roses. Several insecticides work, but i worry about my maples. I just dont want to do anything that harms them. The labels on some mention maples and sometimes specifically japanese maples might be harmed.

    Just looking to see if anyone had used somethings and not hurt the trees. If you know of stuff i really need to stay away from, please let me know.

    Thanks for the honest response
    Mike
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    Hi Mike:

    There are issues with this insect that by law I am not
    even supposed to openly discuss.

    I cannot be as honest as I would like to be as I know
    what was used for years and still is used to kill this
    insect but not everyone can legally spray those 3
    chemicals any more.

    Personally, I think most sprays would be about
    as effective on Japanese Beetles as trying to use
    a peashooter to ward off a raging Elephant.


    Pheromone traps in most cases are just a means to
    let us know how bad our infestation is. I've dealt
    with pheromone traps for over 25 years. They are
    not considered a control out here, neither are baits.

    There is a parasitic nematode that can be used as a
    bio-control but I have real doubt that your leading
    Universities have ever even heard of it. It is the
    same nematode we used for a ground based program
    on the Mediterranean Fruit Fly.

    To protect your plants that are being defoliated now
    you will want a contact spray. Give me a day or two
    and I can find out some particulars for you in Georgia.
    I will probably have to go through the same sources as
    you but the difference is I will know what is pure BS
    and what isn't.

    Here is a situation whereby you need help but my
    hands are really tied on this issue. I can say that
    most insecticide disclaimers that state a possibility
    of being harmful to Maples are not taking into
    consideration Japanese Maples. For the most part
    there has been no real need to ever spray a Japanese
    Maple for insects. Sure, we might have some problem
    bugs at intermittent times but a spray regimen has
    really not been needed in most parts of the US. There
    is one area that should have been doing a soil drench
    every now and then for the Click Beetle also known
    as the Wireworm but nursery people in that area have
    not been doing it for their Japanese Maples.

    Jim
     
  5. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years of Activity

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    Thanks Jim,
    yes i have gone thru numerous sources, but i cannot as you say weed thru the BS.
    I have used some spray for roses last year and it didnt seem to damage the maple trees. Just wanted some experts with japanese maples to give me some hints. Dont want to discover something is bad by killing one, LOL.
    They sure do know how to find the trees they like, very selective. Would love to put something with a smell that drives them away.

    I just want to learn how to handle this situation before i have 50 trees out there they like. Right now i just have 2 6ft japanese maples they seem to be eating. My 6ft Butterfly and Karasu Gawa seem to be safe from them. Just leaf burn, because i dont have them in the best sun conditions. I have a small 3ft fireglow and bloodgood which they havent seemed to find or like. I sprayed my Crepe myrtles and have dispersed most of them, Over to the neighbors. I hate that, but better them than me, LOL. JK.

    Thanks for your input and feel free to email me direct if you like.

    Mike
     
  6. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years of Activity

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    Pesticide to use ...

    is Orthene. An organophosphate. Get it while you can.
     
  7. JapaneseMapleMan

    JapaneseMapleMan Member

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    I live in the SouthEast, and I had the exact same problem with my J. Maples getting defoliated by the J. Beetles.
    They like some more than others.

    Last year, I used a Bayer product (Bayer insecticide) or something like that. It is in the Blue Jugs that Bayer uses now. It's the insecticide - not the fungicide.

    What is great about this product is that you apply it in a bucket to the roots (after diluting it) - it's systemic. Don't have to worry about it burning your leaves.

    I had about 7 defoliated J. Maples for the previous 3 seasons, after applying this last year - I had ZERO.

    Now, I still see the J. Beetles on there but no where near the numbers and the leaves look great. This product lasts like 4 months also.

    If you have a lot of trees it may get expensive, but you can use it on a few of your special trees, or apply it to the Beetles FAVorite trees. I have a Sherwood Flame that they LOVE to eat up. The leaves were not affected at all last year after using this Bayer stuff.

    For what it's worth.

    Elmore - I think the Orthene is already gone in my area... I couldn't find it in April.

    Thank you,
     
  8. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years of Activity

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    Thanks mapleman.
    I will try the stuff. That sounds great applying from the roots. You havent noticed any ill effects in the maples?
    They seen to love my two Bloodgoods. I have a 3ft bloodgood and fireglow, which they havent found yet. Maybe they only look for large foilage trees.
    They dont seem to care for my Sangu kaku's, Crimson Queen, or Inabe Shirade. So hopefully i will only have to protect a few of the red palmatum types. Most of my collection are in pots, 1-2ft tall, and very close to the house where dad can protect them, LOL.

    Thanks for the tip.
    Acer palmatum 'Crazy'
    Mike
     
  9. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    Hi Mark:

    Yes, Orthene is an low grade organophosphate. With
    this insect it is what we do not see is what can hurt us
    the most. JapaneseMapleMan has the right idea. A soil
    drench is the most effective long term control. Bayer's
    Merit is a good one and can be used as a dip like he has
    done as well as a soil drench. Contact sprays are okay
    up to a point as Sevin, Orthene and Methoxyclor with
    Diazinon works good enough for the home owner on the
    adults of this insect. The current most effective soil drench
    is Methyl Bromide. Even the certified organic growers
    here can still use Methyl Bromide as a pre-plant soil
    drench and nematocide. I do not agree with the politics
    of the above and never have but the organic growers
    can bypass us and petition the state every year for the
    right to use Methyl Bromide, even for their edible crops.

    http://www.uky.edu/Agriculture/Entomology/entfacts/trees/ef409.htm

    One thing of interest is hungry hippos post in the thread
    below. At first glance it seems to me that a topical spray
    of the peppermint soap with the Tabasco with some Orthene,
    Sevin (Carbaryl) or Diazinon, all over the counter pesticides,
    just might work for a contact spray and to act as a repellent.

    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=3032

    Jim
     
  10. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    OTC Pesticides

    To All:

    I've gone my limit with this insect. I can discuss over the
    counter pesticides but we have to keep in mind that there
    are other areas that do not approve of our using chemical
    sprays to combat weeds, insects, plant diseases and nematodes
    to name a few. There are times I feel that some global areas
    are still in the stone age but at least they are thinking they are
    trying to be careful and none of us should admonish them for
    being that way. There are perhaps areas that feel that us in
    North America are being silly and there are times they are
    quite correct. Just because I will mention a pesticide does
    not necessarily mean that I approve of its usage but in
    comparison to Restricted Use chemicals that I am much
    less fond of, I foresee less overall problems with the OTC
    type pesticides when used only when they are necessary.

    Jim
     
  11. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years of Activity

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    Thanks Jim
    The information is very helpful!

    The idea of a topical spray with some scented oils and maybe a little insecticide sounds great. I dont mind trying to be safe with the enviroment, i rarely use anything unless i see a big problem. Seeing leaves devoured from trees is a big problem, LOL.

    I agree with you on the over counter stuff, etc. Any chemical, whether manmade or natural, strong or weak, can be very dangerous. Especially by average gardners such as myself. There are so many variables that simple directions on use are sometimes not enough.

    That is one reason i sought out your thoughts. I wanted to make sure i didnt use something that was harmful to my japanese maples. I called one of the brand name insecticide companies. I asked about the product because it mentioned not using on maples. Jeeezz, the whole genus Acer, certain species??? I asked about Japanese Maples, he said it doesnt mention them, so they are safe. Didnt leave me feeling warm and fuzzy.

    I also understand those who dont like the use of chemicals, but i havent seen any replies from them. Its great to just say no chemicals, but how about giving us an idea of how to control problems such as these beetles.

    All this leaves people like me, who are new, lost in the woods trying to figure out what to do. That is where the danger comes in, LOL. I need some help!

    Thanks again for the information!

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy'
    Mike
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years of Activity

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    Hi Mike:

    Got it right this time! If people have a problem
    with the over the counter pesticides I mentioned
    then they can come after me but they had better
    do their homework beforehand. What most people
    want is the same thing I want that they do not
    automatically go searching for chemical sprays
    to solve their problem. The sprays should be the
    last resort but when there are no other viable
    alternatives then what are we to do? People
    may have ideas on what to do but before an
    insect becomes a critical issue is what matters
    the most. We do not hear from them during the
    crisis as they in most cases are no where to be
    found or what they propose as a control may have
    no effectiveness whatsoever. People are quick to
    criticize afterwards but what did they do to try to
    help beforehand and during a crisis situation?
    It just goes with the territory that an impending
    crisis will come about every now and then and for
    you to not get any feedback is far worse than having
    someone come after me. You have a problem, you
    need to take care of it and you cannot wait too much
    on people!

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
  13. JapaneseMapleMan

    JapaneseMapleMan Member

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    The Bayer systemic applied to the roots is called:

    "Bayer Tree and Shrub insecticide".. I did not see any ill effects... My Maples looked better than the ones planted at the Large Nursery we visit.

    Thanks
     
  14. Acre Palmatum Fireglow - Leaves go brown and dry

    I live in the Midland in England UK.

    3 months a go a bough a Fireglow which was some 8 year old grown in a pot.

    I carefully planted this in the ground in a part sun part shade area.

    We have had some very hot days on and off for a few months and many of teh leaves have dried up, gone brown and the tips of all the leaves are brown and dry.

    Is this a result of the sun?

    How can I reverse this and give it a helping hand to settle in?

    If you can help I'd really appreciate it.
     
  15. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years of Activity

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    Hey mike--
    good thread, makes me happy I don't suffer the wrath of the beetle out here (so far at least).
    I have had some odd problems with spider mites and for the first year in three years, aphids. I only mention is as it relates to the effects of topical sprays on maples. It both cases, I used a rose and flower spary containing permethrins or diazinon. It seemed to have no ill effects on the trees. I have heard that the summer heat combined with these sprays can damage the foliage, but I guess it is hard for you and I to differeniate the damage from our hot sun and wind from the sprays...most of my trees look a little or a lot damaged by this time of year and I can't imagine the added insult of beetles. In any case...

    I looked in to the systemic bayer product earlier in the year as a means of treating a probable birch borer infestation in a white brich I have, but the duration from application to protection and the expense (the stuff is very expensive) did not seem worth it. Of course in the case of application in smaller specimens, both cost and time of uptake by the tree would decrease. The application of a systemic product to potted trees is intriguing as it would cost very little, but might ward off various pests including beetles. I have any number of nocturnal pests that chew leaves and eat holes--things I could do without.

    As with anything there is a time and place...for my aphid and mite infestations, a good blast of water from the garden hose turned out to be a much more immediate and effective solution--I no longer use the sprays. But I find it handy to have Phyton 27 nearby for possible bacterial and fungal infections and dormant season application of anti-fungals is a possibility I am considering for overall tree health and longevity. A localized springtime application of a systemic to potted and small landscape trees might be an affordable precaution....one might also consider once-twice yearly visit from a tree care professional to keep things under control; with the size of the collections we are building it might save a few dollars to not have to buy all the chemicals...Just a thought, my education in the sciences leaves me somewhat biased!
    I hear diazinon concentrate may not be available in Oregon much longer...so sad.
    Michael
     
  16. campbtl

    campbtl Member Maple Society

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    This post hasn't been visited for years. I wonder if anyone has any new information or recommendations for japanese beetle control on A.Ps in the southeast.
     
  17. mattlwfowler

    mattlwfowler Active Member Maple Society

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    There is nothing really new that I'm aware of, but Orthene (acephate) is no longer available in most areas without a restricted use license.

    Milky spore is what I'd recommend for control of grubs in the soil from Fall to Spring. Again it is not a perfect solution because the adult beetles travel well, but I have seen a reduction in overall beetle population due to the presence of Milky spore in the soil. I have not tried the nematodes because the Milky spore has been sufficient in my area.

    Merit (Imidicloprid) is probably the most effective and safe (for the tree) treatment I can think of. The systemic action protects for a season, so you don't have to continue spraying as you do with others.

    Sevin (Carbaryl) and even Bifenthrin are effective at killing adult beetles. I would be cautious about using Bifenthrin on tender new growth, but mature foliage seems unaffected.

    Thankfully, I have been able to pick off most of the beetles on my trees in the past few years. Unfortunately, not everyone is so fortunate.
     
  18. Atapi

    Atapi Active Member

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    Hi,

    I saw your question and wonder if you have found your solution. I have a similar one, we live in Virginia and this year we heard that is the year (17th) that the Cicada will come up from the ground in mass and i wonder if they will eat the JMs leaves like those beetle and if they do is there any suggestion to slow them down.

    Thanks,
     
  19. Kaitain4

    Kaitain4 Well-Known Member Maple Society

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    Atapi,

    17-year cicadas do not eat leaves. In fact, they don't eat at all as adults. The grubs live in the ground for 17 years feeding on roots. Then they emerge as flying adults, and do not eat at all. However, the females may harm small trees and twigs because the slit the bark and lay their eggs underneath.
     
  20. Atapi

    Atapi Active Member

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    Thank you K.
    I feel much better now. I just need to keep my eyes on the trees when these Cicada come up. BTW, thank you for all the advices for winter grafting. I didn't success much this time and learn that keep the young grafts alive after the cambium is taken is much harder than I thought it is. I had only 8% success this yr but will try again next yr. Most of my grafts are showing bud breaken but then either fungus or atmosphere...killthem.

    In one of your thread you grafted over 300 of them, what are you going to do with them?. Are you considered sell some of them for beginners like me cause I begin to start my collections and from reading your threads it seems like you have quite a lot of different varieties. Please let me know (steven.japanesemaples@gmail.com).
    Thanks very much.
     
  21. 17 Maples

    17 Maples Active Member

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    Location:
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    one of the problems that many of you face and so do we in southern Oregon is picking up over-counter insecticides, yes I was in the business for over 40 years now retired. as Beetles tend to hide under home and below mulch and duff you have to soak the soil heavily with a residual material. As Jim pointed out suggesting commercial grades to non-pros would be a no-no and also the laws as requirement from state to state are not all the same.......sometimes it is best to call a highly regarded professional. In any case it is going to be difficult for the home-owner to purchase materials and mix/apply in a glass garden end spray unit enough of the material to do any good. control has to be where the Beetles reside not so much applying product to the tender branches and leaves.

    good luck ! E ~
     
  22. campbtl

    campbtl Member Maple Society

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    I think I'll let the bugs eat them and call it survival of the fittest. The idea of soaking the ground with insecticide for asthetic beauty is ICK. I've found that some cultivars are excessively prone to the damage, while others, right next to them, go untouched. Maybe it really is location, location, location, but there may be some amount of resistance involved. If so, I'll stick to those.
     

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