Identification: Asagi, Kizakura, Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by wcutler, Apr 23, 2007.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    Joseph Lin asked me if the Stanley Park tree we're calling 'Gyoiko' and the three or four nearby inside the golf course fence are the same - are they 'Gyoiko' as well or are they 'Ukon'. Mariko thought the golf course ones looked a bit different, but they're quite close together in a shadier setting, with two tree trunks entirely covered with ivy and the other showing some rootstock growth.

    I'm not going to answer the question, but I went back today to get some comparison photos.

    Rhody path 'Gyoiko'
    20100408_RRhodyPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000221.jpg 20100408_RRhodyPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000205.jpg 20100408_RRhodyPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000197.jpg 20100408_RRhodyPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000200.jpg

    Golf course trees, might also be 'Gyoiko'. Second photo with rootstock growth also shows the green buds, similar to the tree above.
    20100408_GolfCourse_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000220.jpg 20100408_GolfCourse_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000219.jpg 20100408_GolfCourse_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000217.jpg 20100408_GolfCourse_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000212.jpg
    Here's one more photo taken two days ago from a twig fallen off one of the golf course trees. And a close-up - is this showing vexillary filaments, which Mariko says are a distinguishing characteristic of 'Gyoiko' and not of 'Ukon'?
    20100406_StanleyPk_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000075.jpg 20100408_GolfCourse_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000217c.jpg

    I can't remember if we have a photo of the emerging leaves, so this is from the rhody path 'Gyoiko'
    20100408_RRhodyPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1000202.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2010
  2. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    On April 14, 2010, my husband went to Tama Forest Science Centre.
    1 Gyoiko tree was just started blooming.
    He said he didn’t notice that the tree had flowers until the staff there told him. Because flowers were really green and they were not very big. (Smaller than Ukon?!) The staff told that Gyoiko petals had chlorophyll (and stomata at the back?). Gyoiko petals are thicker and rumplier than Ukon and curled back.
     

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  3. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    Douglas Justice told me that he thought a difference between 'Gyoiko' and 'Ukon' might be that the 'Ukon' sepals and calyx turn red as the blossoms age but not on 'Gyoiko'. Here are some photos from the Stanley Park tree on the path, when the blossoms are past their prime. Sepals are still green.
     

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  4. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    I’m very sorry to say but now I think the Stanley Park tree might be a variety of Ukon.
    I went many places to see cherries in Japan and saw Gyoiko and Ukon at least 3 place. Those Gyoikos are very different from Ukon. When you see Gyoiko from far you won’t recognize it has flowers. Flower color is greener than new leaves and flowers are small. Flowers of Gyoiko are much smaller than Ukon and they have tousled impression. For petals are curled back and some stamen changed into petals.

    I checked the web sites and the site of National Institute of Genetics (which Google won’t translate) says flower size of Gyoiko differ in west and east part of Japan. Tokyo locates in the east part of Japan. Kono-hana-Sakuyahime and Ishikawa Forest Experiment station locates in west part of Japan. So they might have different Gyoiko.

    Ishikawa Forest Experiment station says the difference between Gyoiko and Ukon is that Gyoiko has stomata on petals. Douglas, you have a microscope, so you can check the trees in Stanley park.

    Gyoiko at Hama Rikyu Park on April 21
    20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 088.jpg 20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 091.jpg 20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 096.jpg
    20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 090.jpg 20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 092.jpg
    Ukon at Hama Rikyu Park on April 21
    20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 097.jpg 20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 098.jpg 20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 099.jpg
    20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 102.jpg 20100421_Hamarikyugarden_Izaki 101.jpg
    I couldn't use coin to compare. Flowers were too high above.

    Gyoiko at Jindai Botanical Garden on April 20
    20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 116.jpg 20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 034.jpg 20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 035.jpg
    20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 037.jpg 20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 118.jpg 20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 128.jpg
    Ukon at Jindai Botanical Garden on April 20 (Weather was getting worth. I couldn’t take good pictures)
    20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 024.jpg 20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 026.jpg 20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 028.jpg
    20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 039.jpg 20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 168.jpg 20100420_JindaiBotanicalGarden_Izaki 169.jpg

    Gyoiko at Tama Forest Science Centre on April 19
    20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 012B.jpg 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 013.jpg 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 015.jpg
    I couldn’t take good photo of Ukon at Tama Forest Science Centre because of location and sun light. 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 035.jpg 20100419_TamaForestScienceCentrer_Izaki 037.jpg
     
  5. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    Just for the record, I've just discovered The Natural History of Stanley Park, a booklet published by the Vancouver Natural History Society in 1988. For what it's worth, they identify the trees in the golf course and at the nearby location outside the course as 'Ukon'.
     
  6. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    We are still going back and forth on this Stanley Park Tree. So here are more photos, to demonstrate the messy looking petals, curled back petals, staminodes; are stomata on petals something one can see in a photo? Are they supposed to be on all the petals or just the outer ones? In the second photo, you can see blossoms that look almost close to what Mariko posted for Gyoiko, and others that look just like 'Ukon'.
    20110503_StanleyPk_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1110149.jpg 20110503_StanleyPk_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1110159.jpg 20110503_StanleyPk_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1110200.jpg
    20110503_StanleyPk_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1110209.jpg 20110503_StanleyPk_Gyoiko_Cutler_P1110225.jpg

    Nora Melzer wasn't aware of the discussion, so wasn't looking for weirdness and posted this fairly normal for 'Ukon' photo from the same tree in the West End Blog.
    20110508_ greig rhodo stanley park_ukon _NCM 5561A.jpg
     
  7. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    Okay, I'm pretty sure I've got this figured out.

    Three separate "Ukon" clones are present in the Vancouver area: one with very pale pink-tinged creamy yellow flowers (almost never showing any green), one with more more yellow flowers often showing pale green stripes, and the Stanley Park one, which has yellowish white flowers, the outer petals almost always entirely green and the inner petals variously green-striped. The palest one corresponds to the description of 'Ukon' in Kuitert, and is by far, the most common clone around here. The Stanley Park specimens open a week or so later than 'Ukon' and usually have flowers with one or two extra sepals. The heart of each flower and often the mid line of each petal becomes reddish as it ages. This describes, as far as I can tell, ‘Kizakura’, not 'Gyoiko'. The intermediate one (i.e., representing some of the older West End and 49th and Churchill specimens) is probably 'Asagi'. Flower colour expression and petal shape in these plants is undoubtedly mediated by temperature, moisture status and exposure, probably when buds are developing. In some years, flowers can be very green (hence the 'Gyoiko' confusion). Does this make sense?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2011
  8. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    Yes, it makes sense, but I don't like it.

    1. Don't these look like 'Ukon'? Who would call them anything else?
    20130423_7thSasamat_Asagi_Cutler_P1420910.jpg 20130423_7thSasamat_Asagi_Cutler_P1420911.jpg 20130423_7thSasamat_Asagi_Cutler_P1420914.jpg 20130423_7thSasamat_Asagi_Cutler_P1420924.jpg

    2. Same tree as the previous blossom photos, so I guess 'Asagi', eh?
    20130423_7thSasamat_Asagi_Cutler_P1420918.jpg 20130423_7thSasamat_Asagi_Cutler_P1420927.jpg 20130423_7thSasamat_Asagi_Cutler_P1420928.jpg

    Now I have to go back and look at all 10 trees, and see if they all have green stripes? Maybe it's a mix of 'Ukon' and 'Asagi'.

    But in practical terms, aren't people going to call them 'Ukon'? I think you can find some green stripes on any 'Ukon'. How many green stripes makes them 'Asagi'? And if "temperature, moisture status and exposure" affect the colouring, what's the point of having a distinction between these two?

    Let's get the festival to pay to have the supposed three cultivars tested.
     
  9. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Asagi, Kizakura, Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-sea

    According to Kuitert, 'Asagi' is evidently a "less vigorous, less handsome tree" than 'Ukon'. However, the characteristics of the various 'Ukon' segregates (as outlined in the book) are mind-numbingly contradictory and confusing. For example (as quoted in Kuitert), Ingram says "the cream-tinged flowers of 'Asagi' are of a better shape than 'Ukon' and nearly single..." while "Sano IV counted eight to twelve petals per flower." Hardly a good description for a "single." We're clearly talking about two different trees.

    In retrospect, I'm less certain about my "figuring it out" last year. I suspect that a good taxonomist of cultivated plants would call them all Ukon Group and be done with it. Hardly poetic. Nevertheless, I think we should probably just call them all 'Ukon' at least until we can grow them in the common garden and determine what are the actual differences.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
  10. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Asagi, Kizakura, Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-sea

    Here are just two photos of the 'Kizakura' in Stanley Park, at peak bloom today. No red in the flowers at all yet. There's a bit of 'Shirotae' on the upper left and a magnolia and something else beneath it, to show how not white it is.

    I never really commented on Mariko's photos in posting #29. That third photo, showing all those vexillate filaments on the 'Gyoiko' - that's stunningly clear.
     

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  11. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-season

    Well, that's not true. Here is Anne Eng's photo of an 'Ukon' at VanDusen. No green stripes at all. I saw it in real life today, same story.
     

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  12. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout

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    Re: Asagi, Kizakura, Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-sea

    Im sorry to write now, but you cant call Stanley Park cherry Ki-zakura. Because Ki means yellow in Japanese. So no Japanese would name greenish white cherry Ki-zakura. Chinese character used for Ki is same as Chinese people use for yellow. So they think so, too.

    Then can it be Asagi? It is more complicated. Asagi is a word for color but it can be written using 2 different ways in Chinese character. So it can mean 2 different colours.
    If you write like 浅黄 which you can see in the Kuiterts list, 浅 means shallow so it can means pale then Asagi becomes pale yellow. The other Asagi is 浅葱, which means pale blue.
    But things are more complicated. The Chinese character for pale blue is a rather difficult letter to write, so now some people like paper manufacturers use the character for pale yellow for pale blue. So botanists dont like to use Asagi for cherries.

    Also study of the cherry flowers progressed recently and researchers compered Ukon, Asagi and Ki-zakura and most of them think now those three cherries which have been known from 1700s are the same cherry. So recently many gardens like Shinjuku Gyoen integrated the three names to Ukon. I think there, names were changed by Toshio Katsuki, the author of the Gakken book, around 2000. It means when Kuitert saw cherries there, there were Ki-zakuras there.

    By the way, I found a website which shows both Ukon and Ki-zakura. It is a site of Osaka Mint. Page 71 of Kuitert book shows an old picture Yodo River and Cherries of Osaka Mint.
    The Google Translate made Ukon to Turmeric and Ki-zakura (first picture of the list) to Yellow Cherry (Ninth picture of the list, father down) . I think both look like same.
     
  13. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Asagi, Kizakura, Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-sea

    Mariko brings up an issue that is has been nagging at us for some time. Kuitert is clearly the best non-Japanese interpreter of cherries we have, and our determinations are often based upon his descriptions. But there is no denying that these cultivars—'Ukon', 'Asagi' and 'Ki-zakura'—are a confused lot. The more one looks at the written descriptions, the more confusing they become.

    It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a green and white flower could appear yellow from a distance (hence, Ki-zakura); however, it is more likely that the names have been mixed up, probably from the beginning.

    Despite the fact that I said in a previous post that I'd pretty much "figured it out," I'll admit that I spoke too soon. Rather than saying that there are three separate clones in Vancouver, I should say that there are three separate 'Ukon' manifestations that can be seen.

    I believe that environmental conditions, particularly spring temperature and the conditions of the previous summer (when the flower primordia develop), as well as the type and condition of the rootstock and the determine to some degree the flower's appearance. This doesn't explain completely why the trees in Stanley Park consistently have green stripes and little or no yellow in the petals, and the common 'Ukon' street trees are mostly yellow (and pink) and have little or no green striping. It would be instructive (as I keep saying) to grow them all under the same conditions in a common garden.
     
  14. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Asagi, Kizakura, Gyoiko and Ukon - Greenish white doubles, bronze leaves, mid-sea

    I'm beginning to think that the plant with the strongly green-striped flowers we've been calling 'Kizakura' is more probably 'Gyoiko'. And I suspect that if it were warmer in Vancouver, the flowers would be even greener.
     
  15. wcutler

    wcutler Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Here are a few photos of the 'Gyoiko' in Stanley Park. This was definitely not the warm year that Douglas thought would create better colour. I was wearing my winter coat today.
    This tree is well past peak bloom, but it's still well-covered in flowers. Here is the tree and a photo of flowers that look just like 'Ukon'.
    20170512_StanleyParkMaintPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_150949.jpg 20170512_StanleyParkMaintPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_151139.jpg

    And flowers that don't look like 'Ukon'.
    20170512_StanleyParkMaintPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_151146.jpg 20170512_StanleyParkMaintPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_151246.jpg 20170512_StanleyParkMaintPath_Gyoiko_Cutler_151426.jpg

    We've had some postings in the neighbourhoods of contenders for this name; I'll see if I can get some photos here of those.
     

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