Acer palmatum Cutting propagation ?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by michelle, May 24, 2004.

  1. michelle

    michelle Member

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    Can I Take Cuttings From My Maple & If So How?
     
  2. graftedmaplecollector

    graftedmaplecollector Active Member 10 Years

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    Maple overlord Vertrees advises in his literature against it, especially in the
    the landscape. Im hardheaded though and used rooting powder once to try it anyway. Well they lived long enough for me to fall in love with them (12")
    and then.....they died. They werent even in the landscape!!!
    Also other considerations apply, such as: Beni shi en is patented and asexual
    reproduction is illegal like many roses coming out now.
    A non-grafted cultivar will always be weaker than a grafted cultivar, thats
    not to say some arent for sale,they are, but let the buyer beware.
    Many of the more spectacular cultivars have like an almost zero chance of rooting like the red filigree lace....that thing is hard enough to graft.
    And, Im not sure but I dont think theres a list of who does and who doesnt root better anyway.
    Basically you get what you pay for, save yourself some stress and heartache
    and get the grafts..hey just look at my name :)
     
  3. barbgup

    barbgup Member

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    Propagation of maples

    I have tried several years of maple cuttings in early spring (sterm cuttings) or late spring (stem cuttings with 4-6 leaves) and put them in cold frames. The success rate is very low approx. 1-2% and even rooted cuttings do not survive the following winter.

    How can I improve the rooting percentage???


    Alos, I was told that growing maple from seeds is the easier way. I collected maple seeds and put them on potting medium in 6" pots and left them outdoor but no germination. Why???

    How and when should I collect maple seeds??? How should I plant them???
     
  4. MtnGato

    MtnGato Active Member

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    I'm no expert, but everything I've read says that while you can get beautiful trees from seedlings, they will not reliably grow true to form of their parent and cannot legitimately be labeled as any specific cultivar. If that's not your objective, then go ahead along the seedling route.
     
  5. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I followed the instructions in Vertrees book for seed propagation last year with good germination. I collected seeds Sept/Oct, tossed them in damp peat moss in plastic bags, put them in the garage over winter, then planted them in the spring. I did not soak them first, but I understand this is a good first step. I really did it to see what kinds of leaves and colors I would discover, knowing it can take several years for the characteristics to show. I have transferred a few to individual containers and they are growing well. I'll bring them into the garage this winter, obviously, and we'll see what happens.

    As to cuttings, I was recently told by a grower that they had good results dipping cuttings in rooting hormone and then putting them in perlite. I haven't tried, but when I asked about that on this list, grafting was suggested as a better alternative, which is what the nurseries do.
     
  6. Dale B.

    Dale B. Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Japanese Maple seeds should be collected from the tree in the fall before they dry out. Put them in a plastic bag, tossed with moist, not wet, peat moss. Keep the bag in the refrigerator for 90 days before you plant them in the spring. The bag should be kept between 33 and 40 degrees for 90 to 120 days. This process called stratification will give the most uniform germination. With out stratification some seeds can take up to 5 years to germinate.

    Even with stratification, I find that some batches of seed do not germinate well. The fix is to collect lots of seed from as many different sources as you can. You just have to live with a lot of bags filled with maple seeds and peat moss in your fridge for the winter.

    Japanese Maples from seed are like looking at litters of mixed breed puppies. Some will be prettier than others, some may make better dogs than their pure bred parents, large and small, different colors, different shapes, etc. Most may make great pets. None will be a purebred show dog. All are fun to play with when they are young. I enjoy growing Japanese Maples from seed and watching what develops.

    Japanese Maples are difficult to root and even if they root, may not have a root system that will support them when they grow larger. Grafting onto a good rootstock is a better way to insure a healthy adult tree than rooting. That is why most if not all of the cultivars are grafted. Most of the rooted cultivars are sold for use in bonsai rather than to be grown out in the landscape.
     
  7. Segger

    Segger Member

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    ACER palmatum cultivar propagation

    Grafts vs. rooted cuttings. Advantages and disadvantages...
     
  8. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    You answered your own question

    Rooted cuttings of palmatum cultivars are certainly desireable, even more so than grafted specimens. Problem being attention has not been given, or is not being given to the best way to propagate all or many of the cultivars in this method. Some that are easy or that are used for bonsai regularly have established availablity by cutting-based propagation, but the list is short.

    This is a discussion that has and will continue to spark a very heated debate. One point being the camp that believe that many maple cultivars will not do well on their own roots if not grafted and another that believe that while requiring much more care and attention, the cutting grown plant will evenually "catch up" or exceed the growth and longevity of the grafted specimen.

    Second being those that believe cutting grown maples will have a greater longevity and possibly more disease resistance vs. those mainting the belief that cutting grown maples are inferior.

    If one was to research, I believe that we would find the Japanese propagated their maples very successfully through cuttings for many generations, we have chosen to graft to preserve our intitial specimens and for more immediate gratification.

    Cuttings are far too labor intense for wholesale propagation and likely too labor intensive for many moderate volume collectible propagators. What could be considered is the need or desire to grow stock plants and specimens from cuttings. While scion wood might be limited at first, after grafting the initial stock plant, one might conisder rooting cuttings to maintaing the plant as a higher quality specimen or to offer it for sale or trade in small quantity.

    Of course, those of us that are collectors have the opportunity and should take advantage of the opportunity to root cuttings as your initial statement in the thread indicates. As with many plants, some will be much more difficult than others, but hopefully the reward would out weigh the cost--I'll have to find out some day.

    As with many woody cuttings, proper attention to temperature and moisture, as well as disease control will be paramount. Maple roots can be hard to establish and will require graduation to different mediums and conditions over time.

    Take this with a grain of salt from someone who has not yet grafted or rooted a maple cutting--Just seeds for now. While I cannot support either point of view from experience, let this serve as a summary of the arguements I have read. For a plant purist, it would be hard to deny the legitamacy of cuttings if a proper attempt has not been made to rule out this method of propagation as a primary means.

    If you have some maples you intend to propagate this way, it may be more useful to ask about a particular cultivar than stir the general debate about cuttings vs. grafts. There are some experienced individuals here that could help estimate the relative difficulty of a given cultivar. The debate would certainly be more productive in this vein.

    MJH
     
  9. Segger

    Segger Member

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    Cutting propagation has been overlooked. As the popular method in north America has been grafts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2005
  10. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: ACER palmatum cultivar propigation

    Would love to hear what your methods are for rooting cuttings. I am currently trying to develop my procedure. Last year i tried a couple in the typical well drained soils with little sucess, while a pruned clipping, which was on the ground for two months then stuck into my yard Ga red clay) rooted and now has a gorgoues nebari (root system) which i plan on using for Bonsai.
    I think since i dont have a nice watering/mist system, and my timing can be quite regular, the well drained soil just dried up on me to much between watering. This year i am trying a mix with some of my yards red clay, which will hold more moisture consistenly. Now i am getting some rotting, so trying to keep the moisture very low. Some Seiryu's, which i think root fairly easily, are growing roots with this method.

    Mike
     
  11. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Purpose of thread?

    Mike--
    Good to see you visiting the forum again!

    Segger--
    You seem to have a good background with this topic, what is the purpose you had in mind for this thread if the question was apparently rhetorical? The advantage really resides in the rooted cutting and knowing the plant well enough to be able to grow it in this manner. As you indicate, there is no simple plan for this process, instead it must be adapted as one goes with its success measured in time.

    MJH
     
  12. yesheh

    yesheh Member

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    Re: ACER palmatum cultivar propigation

    in our program, we get palmadums in plugs, root prune them, then field bud them with buddy tape, we usually get a pretty good catch too...
     
  13. Ping

    Ping Member

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    Japanese Maple (Acer palmatum) Cutting propagation

    Hello;
    I am very interested in Japanese maple (Acer palmatum) cutting propagation and believe it is a efficient way. I heard some people did some cultivar or even seedlings successfully. I specifically have two questions for Jim or anyone who wants share his ideas:(1) Do you know how many Japanese maple cultivars or seedling have been successfully propagated by cuttings. (2) I know you get cuttings from 'Bloodgood' seedlings and used as rootstocks for some specific slow growing Japanese maples. My questions is why you use Acer palmatum 'Bloodgood' seedling rather than directly use 'Bloodgood' cuttings as the rootstocks? Is this because (A) the 'Bloodgood' is not easy to root or (B) you select more vigorous plant than 'Bloodgood' itself from the 'Bloodgood' seedling? In another word, is there and advantage using 'Bloodgood' seedling rather than using 'Bloodgood'?
    For the Acer palmatum rootstock, currently almost all the nurseries use Acer palmatum seedlings as the rootstocks. The problem is that the plant (rootstock) came from seed not uniform, after graft the cultivar scion wood or bud, may be worse. If we can find some vigor plant from Acer palmatum, we can produce same genetic rootstocks by clone (cutting propagation). My idea is try to select some possible rootstocks for Japanese maple (Acer palmatum). These rootstocks may select from vigrous Acer palmatum cultivars or their seedlings like Acer palmatum 'Bloodgood' or Acer palmatum 'Osakazuki', etc. (just like what you did). Or select from Acer Circinatum. The target rootstock should be vigor, easy to root, compatible to cultivar, tolerate to major stress conditions. I try to get two different rootstocks: one is green one is red. Do you have any idea which cultivar or seedling has the potential? Any comments are welcome.
    Thanks
    Ping
     
  14. growest

    growest Active Member 10 Years

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    Re: Japanese Maple (Acer palmatum) Cutting propagation

    Ping--an article a few years back in the Plant Propagator's Society annual meeting transcripts covered ***. maple propagation protocols in Europe. I'll have to look it up again to get the year that this report is found.

    It contained interesting details of how the society's reporter visited French and British nurseries to survey their propagation methods, and report back. In general, she noted that British nurseries do mostly cutting prop., while the French did grafting like in North America. There was no mention of specific varieties being excluded from the cutting system, but I'll check it again to be sure.

    Glen
     
  15. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Re: Japanese Maple (Acer palmatum) Cutting propagation

    One of the problem areas I have is that I do not know
    where the information I will give or have given will
    be going. If it is to better the Japanese Maple then
    at one time I felt some incentive to write. That is
    not the case for me now. I will not divulge trade
    secrets we once had, used and learned from others
    to a forum that I am no longer officially a member
    of.

    Jim
     
  16. mjh1676

    mjh1676 Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Japanese Maple (Acer palmatum) Cutting propagation

    As to your question about why cutting-grown rootstocks have not been widely used is probably two-fold.

    One: No matter what the method, the overall yield will be greater if we work with seeds. There will also be less labor involved in seed propagation. Both of these factors will make seed-grown understock more economical, not necessarily better.

    Two: While I see what you are saying, very few people will agree with you or recognize that a cutting grown maple, understock or variety, is superior. Similarly, you are implying that the cutting-grown understock has some systemic/or at least important effect on the grafted variety, superior to a seedling grown understock, another issue that few will agree with.

    So, I am not sure the market (or a large market) for a cutting grown rootstock exists, but I do think there is a market for a new seedling rootstock, especially a vigorous red one. Now, there is nothing that would preclude you from using the cutting-grown process to purify a line of seed, is there? Even if you were to use a particular variety for cuttings, you would still need to clean up the plant, as there are few plants out there now that you could acquire that are of a quality high enough to parent understock without some work.

    So, I think there are two things you might want to focus on, depending on your reason and motive for this undertaking. One, develop a pure seedling understock that produces a strong vigorous root system and is hardy under a multitude of condtions. Second, the purification and process and production of cutting-grown plants of named varieties, not as understock, but as saleable plants. Should there be a variety that you could not root, then possible grafting to a cutting-grown understock might be viable.

    When you do find a cutting-grown or new seed rootstock, I would be happy to try it! As for more than the advice above, I have little to offer in specific answers. Good Luck.
    MJH
     
  17. katsura

    katsura Active Member 10 Years

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    Re: Japanese Maple (Acer palmatum) Cutting propagation

    Please look at page 29 "Cuttings" of D.M. van Gelderen's MAPLES of the WORLD where
    the author says in paragraph 5: "A significant disadvantage of propagation by cuttings
    is that all the roots are clonal. A number of species and cultivars, including Acer palmatum, do not form vigorous trees on their own roots....Clonal plants on clonal roots
    are far more susceptible [to Verticillium dahliae(wilt disease)] than those grafted on
    species rootstock. In this author's opinion, commercial propagation of cultivars of
    A. palmatum by cuttings is to be avoided, although many growers have a different view."
     
  18. Ping

    Ping Member

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    Re: Japanese Maple (Acer palmatum) Cutting propagation

    Hello katsura and all:
    Thank you all for all your valuable suggestion and help. I also believe "cutting' propagation rootstocks may not be worth to do. The main reason is (1) More expensive, (2) not easy to find a excellent rootstocks.
    Now to me cutting propagate any acer (include acer palmatum) is not a problem. I have the idea as following, but it may not correct:
    grafting or cutting which method can enhance tree growth depends on which kind of rootstock you use. If you use a rootstock has stronger growth potential than the scion wood (or bud), it will stimulate the cultivar growth. If the rootstock has similar growth potential as the cultivar, it will not stimulate cultivar growth. If weaker, it will decrease the cultivar growth. If the rootstock has the same growth potential as the cultivar, the advantage of use seedling rootstock may stimulate some growth in comparision with the cutting propagated rootstocks (or cultivars). To me, if cultivar grafted on the same growth potential rootstocks ( like palmatum cultivar grafted on same growth potential palmatum seedling rootstock), I prefer use cutting propagation. I believe it is cheaper. But not yet know the market.
    Thanks
    Ping
     
  19. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Just a few quick thoughts. A lot of times it
    is difficult to answer or reply to a question in
    which we do not know what all is entailed in
    the question. We've had a few hit and runs in
    these forums in which someone comes in out
    the blue, asks a pertinent question to them,
    hoping that someone will take the bait and
    "bite" by giving some insight to the subject
    and then we no longer hear from the person
    that asked the original question.

    I am not going to go into detail about Maples
    on their own roots as I've addressed the issue
    before in this forum and have seen that few
    people want to know this stuff or in some
    cases they are way ahead of themselves and
    are not ready to know what all is involved
    with cuttings, layered and air layered Maples.
    A specific question asked about which cultivars
    to use for raising cutting grown understock is
    one that not even a nurseryman would come
    right out and ask another fellow nurseryman.
    There are some rules of etiquette involved
    with us oldtimers in that much of what we
    learned and know is better kept to the vest
    as so many people either do not want to know
    this information or we have people wanting
    to know solely for their own personal gain.
    I will not help the latter case any more. I
    made that decision a long while back in a
    Citrus thread.

    So, if people want my input on this issue I
    can deal with generalizations but I will not
    address specifics. Let me say this much that
    there are some "juiced" cuttings coming out
    of Japan that some people have been using
    as understock for their Maples. I'll let you
    people wonder what juiced means. Even a
    grower, more than one actually, in this forum
    has asked me about which cutlivars to use for
    seedling understock and I told them away from
    this forum. I am not sure I would do that again
    as I end up helping some people I really do
    not know or helping people that I have no
    interest in helping until they come "clean"
    (tell us the real reason they want to know)
    with the rest of us..

    Glen, it is a mistake to equate that the British
    are doing more cuttings with Maples than they
    are grafting. It is true that most people in the
    US and Europe are grafting their Maples but
    there is one big void and that no one is talking
    what is going on in Japan, whereby even today
    more Maples are on their own roots from rooted
    cuttings, layered and air layered than there are
    grafted Maples. One reason why we know so
    little about these plants is that not many of them
    are available for sale yet or to be shipped to
    other countries any time soon.

    Another bit of oversight is that the specialty
    production Maple growers really never have
    wanted to let the IPPS know exactly what they
    were doing in their operations even though many
    of them were members. After the 70s many
    of the long time non grafting propagators just
    went into a no tell shell. It used to be true that
    the people that were propagating Maples on their
    own roots were in the forefront but much of that
    changed in the late 60's when Maples on their
    own roots came into the US and certain locales
    in Europe and people wanted to duplicate these
    plants fast either to perpetuate the plant in case
    they lost the variety, now called cultivar by many,
    or there was interest in grafting these plants to be
    available rather soon for sale. I've addressed why
    the grafting became the more streamlined method
    for propagation of Maples in another Maple forum
    and that was another of one of my mistakes of
    regret for ever doing it and putting it in writing
    for others to read..

    Jim
     
  20. Ping

    Ping Member

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    Hi Jim,
    Thank you vey much for your reply and you opinion. I agree with you. Currently in North America grafting propagation is still the most important methods. Much more important than cutting propagation. I working on fruit trees for about 20 years, but for maple just recent years. To my specific conditions, I prefer cutting propagation. it might be cheaper and seems growth not that slow if compare the same year make cuttings and same years you plant the seed. Next years suppose you graft the cultivar on the seedling rootstock and the cutting also have two year growth. The size no much difference. This is not to say grafting not good. For the slowing or weaker cultivar, grafting is also the best choice.
    I know in fruit trees, there are many different rootstocks. Some can stimulate cultivar growth very much. That why I hope some day some one can find some excellent rootstocks for Japanese maple.
    For Japanese maple propagation back in Japan, I guess most of them use grafting. Some nursery I know they produce good maple use grafting. We know some Japanese nurserimen also mentioned they mentioned they use grafting. One reason is cutting not that sucessful.
    Thanks
    Ping
     
  21. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Actually most of the non-commercial growers in
    Japan are still growing Maples on their own roots.
    Why, because the Maples will live longer than
    grafted Maples will. That has proved out in Japan
    as well as here in the US. To the plantman in Japan
    the Maple becomes a sibling, no longer is a plant
    per say. Just look how an Apple grower, most of
    them being home gardeners nurtures one individual
    Apple as if it is a long lost soul that has been recently
    found. To them the Apple becomes a treasure and
    there is honor in perpetuating the treasure and to do
    that we do not incorporate a second genome into
    the Maple by grafting it. The Maple no longer
    becomes a pure sibling is how the traditionalist
    people I knew and know in Japan will look at
    things right or wrong.

    We grafted most all of our Maples but we did do
    cuttings as well. The Achilles heel of the Japanese
    Maple has always been the feet, the understock.
    People talk about Verticillium as if they know
    what they are writing about only because a book
    author, a pathologist or someone they trust told
    them about the pathogen. What no one wants to
    talk about is that there is a slow decline form
    found in all Japanese Maples to an extent and
    there is the quick decline form that is generally
    only seen from grafted Maples. In the last couple
    of years I've seen evidence of the old quick decline
    form again and we will see it start out as a whitish
    discoloration in the rootstock. Then the top will
    wilt and quickly die on us, then shortly thereafter
    the rootstock turns black in splotches and also dies.
    Had that happen to me this year with 8 of the 16
    Maples I purchased from an Oregon grower. We
    never saw the quick decline form of Verticillium
    in our grafted Maples at the nursery. I've never
    seen the quick decline form of Verticillium in any
    Maple on its own roots anywhere and I've been to
    enough places to have seen a few of these things.
    I fully agree that Maples on their own roots have
    a pre-eminent place in the forefront among Maple
    propagation.

    I have a problem with the commercialization
    gathered from information in this forum that
    is being used away from this forum. Tell you
    what, get some more posts in this forum under
    your belt and then send me a private message
    and we can talk about cutting grown rootstocks
    then, how's that?

    Jim
     
  22. daryl

    daryl New Member

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    hello there all you people. having only just found this site i am amazed to find you all talking about how to propagate Acers. here in New Zealand i have recently finished my apprenticship were i was mainly specialising in acer propagation. At the nursery were i was training we used simple techniques that worked extrememly well.

    all the rootstock was from acer. Palmatum taken during the winter months and placed in the ground to be field grown. during spring these cuttings would grow more roots and by summer they would be around 3-5 feet tall. then we would bud these stocks with a vast selection of varieties.

    EASY IF YOU KNOW HOW.

    I have heard however that this method is extremely hard to do in other parts of the world because of climate conditions and soil types.

    please reply if you have any quaries
     
  23. Ping

    Ping Member

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    Hello Daryl:
    Can you explain more about how then root their cuttings of all the rootstock of Acer Palmatum. What's the cutting status? Is their any treatment? What's the rooting mix or medium.
    Thanks
    Ping
     
  24. Scion Swapper

    Scion Swapper Active Member

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    "Actually most of the non-commercial growers in
    Japan are still growing Maples on their own roots.
    Why, because the Maples will live longer than
    grafted Maples will. That has proved out in Japan
    as well as here in the US."

    <snip> Where's the reference for <snip> this research?? <snip> I know many nurserymen in this country who grow Japanese Maples and have tried both approaches. I don't know ONE nurseryman in this country that would agree with that statement. Not ONE. People on this forum need to realize that Mr. Sheps opinions regarding the propagation of Japanese maples are highly controversial and counter to the reference information in nearly all of the accepted Japanese Maple literature.

    <snip>

    On that note, if you want to root Japanese Maples (again I advise against the practice) heres how you do it:

    Take cuttings in early July when the wood has hardened off. Cut three node scions, which should be about 8-10 inches or so long. Keep the cuttings moist. Remove the lower set of leaves with pruners, keeping the petiol on to protect the bud underneath. With a sharp clean knife (keep rubbing alcohol around and periodically disinfect your blade) make a shallow cut into the cambium on two sides of the base of the cuttings. The cuts should be about an inche long. Now dip the base of the cuttings in a 5:1 (Water:hormone) solution of dip-n-grow. Allow the hormone to dry for a couple of minutes, now stick the cuttings in a 50:50 blend of peat:perlite. The cuttings should be in full sun. An intermittent misting system, which keeps the leaves moist but dosn't over saturate the soil media, should be in place. The cuttings will be rooted by late August and can be potted up in early fall. Bloodgood roots easily and you can expect greater than 90% success if you do it right.

    Final note to leave off with: If I had an otherwise healthy looking Japanese Maple in my own landscape that was grown on its own root, I would tear it out tomorrow because it is taking up space where a grafted tree could grow. They are not hardy in my climate, they will never "catch up" to a graft, and they will never outlive a graft. And that opinion comes from years of growing rooted cuttings and grafts side-by-side in the field, and also observing similar results at other nearby nurseries. Now, Mr Shep will come back and make assumptions about how we used disease laden cuttings ect and that's why they didn't do well.

    <snip>

    Have a nice day.

    Brian
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2006
  25. bkjoe25

    bkjoe25 Member

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