Maple cultivar by another name OR (Synonym).#27 #458 #665

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Acerholic, Apr 19, 2021.

  1. Luke’s Maples

    Luke’s Maples Contributor

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    Likewise
     
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  2. Luke’s Maples

    Luke’s Maples Contributor

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    I thought Toyama Nishiki and Goshiki Shidare, though similar were definitely different trees. I believe Toyama has more white with Goshiki showing more red?
     
  3. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Thanks for that Luke, this is what the thread also needs, some hands on experiences. Members will see your posting and the Synonym list and investigate further if they want either named maple.
     
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  4. Luke’s Maples

    Luke’s Maples Contributor

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    Perhaps ibuprofen and nurofen can be added to the list lol ;-)
     
  5. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    What are you two like !!!! Lol.
     
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  6. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Atrolineare is not a synonym of Red pygmy. I think it's much older. RP is from Esveld, according to Vertrees it was introduced as a superior clone, holding a better red and sunburning less. They are definitely different clones (cultivars) though. Vertrees gives a boatload of synonyms for Atrolineare, including Filifera purpureum, which you will soon find in the Checklist as well.
     
  7. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Thanks E, I will have the check list in the next couple of days. Re Red Pygmy and Atrolineare being a Synonym, I have just double checked the RHS and they say it is. So that's an interesting conflict between the two Societies. I will of course remove this as we should be in line with the MS.
     
  8. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    As per E @emery posting, Atrolineare being a Synonym of Red Pygmy has been removed.
    Members should IMO look at both trees to see if there is that much of a difference to warrant the purchase of both.
     
  9. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    With the greatest of respect, the RHS are not maple experts. They are 100% wrong this time, certainly! I didn't look at the Checklist in this instance, just Vertrees, as I remembered that Dick van Gelderen had named Red pygmy. and that Atrolineare is much older. I'm not a cultivar expert either, that's for sure, but I know some of them.
     
  10. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Totally understand E, I have removed it. See #108.
     
  11. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I thought I would quote from Vertrees regarding Red Pygmy, it is possibly where some confusion lays.
    It says, This excellent red cultivar from the Netherlands is superior to 'Atrolineare', the standard cultivar.
     
  12. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    I just thought I would update the thread as I haven't posted anything today. Yes I do have more to add, but I am waiting on some more literature that is coming my way this week, so that a better confirmation of Synonyms is placed here.
     
  13. Acirón

    Acirón Active Member

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    Hi D,

    Where could I find your list of synonyms?

    Thank you!
     
  14. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Buenas tardes P, está en la página 4, publicación número 27.
     
  15. Acirón

    Acirón Active Member

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    Maple cultivar by another name (Synonym).#27 in my browser is the #28 hahaha

    About Little Princess:
    Acer palmatum MAPI NO MACHI HIME de Maillot-Erable - La boutique MAILLOT-ERABLE
    Acer palmatum KIYO HIME de Maillot-Erable - La boutique MAILLOT-ERABLE

    Same name for two cultivars? And, is 'Murasaki Kiyohime' other synonym of 'Little Princess'?

    "Mejishi............................Shishigashira.............."

    I think that you mean 'Ojishi', not 'Mejishi'
     
  16. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Gracias por esos P, volveré a verificar cuando tenga la lista que espero en los próximos días. Te lo haré saber, lo prometo.
     
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  17. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I glanced at the list, which is actually post #28 on page 2 in my browser. Maybe depends on how many posts are configured per page.

    What's the authority for 'Red Filigree Lace' = 'Red Feather'?

    'Red Filigree Lace' is a registered trademark name from 1973 (W. Goddard) according to Vertrees/Yano.

    'Red Feather' appears to have been introduced in 1995. So they aren't synonyms AFAIK.
     
  18. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Tentatively atm E. It was sent to me via a text. I will put a question mark against it. But I can see the similarities with my Red Feather and and other people's Red filligree lace. Tbh more than a similarity.

    I'm thinking of changing the thread title and adding OR (Synonym). I've received a lot of messages from members saying they would like to see maples that are similar or almost identical to a named cultivar as well as Synonyms.
     
  19. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I think that's a great idea. From my point of view, there's a lot of merit in knowing that 2 cultivars are virtually identical (as may be the case with RF and RFL). Although there will always be some contrarian who says something like "But RF has shorter internodes!". But unfortunately many cultivars look the same without actually being synonyms, like the two in question.

    One of the most knowledgeable "cultivaristas" is now Registrar for Acer cultivars. He recently showed pictures of around 20 little small-leaved dwarfs, (Komachi hime, Little Princess, etc) and announced they all look pretty much the same. :)
     
  20. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Excellent E, I will do that straight away, I know from many messages I've received that this will be popular.
    I will of course keep the Synonym list updated and especially when I get the paperwork through from Hugh in the next couple of days.
     
  21. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Nice one. The Checklist will help but of course not solve the problem, being from 2008, there have been sooo many introductions since then. 'Read Feather' isn't listed there though we have it now, there is a possible doppleganger named 'Red Feathers' (plural!) but maybe it was just a catalog typo.
     
  22. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Remember that single quotes indicate cultivar names only, if a word or words is instead a selling name as they are called in Britain then it is not presented in single quotes. Also a name being given at a different time than another does not establish that two different plants are involved. Rather merely that two different names were brought into use at different times. As would pretty much always be the case when an existing named cultivar was given another name by somebody.
     
  23. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Agreed E, there are so many that are obviously typos on the cultivar photos list, or tbh they could be just spelt differently from different parts of the world. But of course it doesn't help keep on top of correct naming. I wonder how many in the now several thousand cultivars out there are doubled or even triplled up !!? Might never know, !! but let's try and help members on the UBC at least, with a list that we know is either a Synonym or practically the same.
     
  24. Acerholic

    Acerholic Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Thanks Ron, a very good point.
     
  25. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    In addition when a plant introduction is promoted using a selling name there is often a separate cultivar name in use also. Often nowadays these latter will be jawbreaker or combination words. For instance to use a much grown Japanese flowering cherry as an example SNOW FOUNTAINS ('Snofozam'). In this case SNOW FOUNTAINS is a trademark used to sell the 'Snofozam' cultivar. With the cultivar name being presumably a combination word based on snow fountains zampini.

    So until it is known otherwise any Japanese maple that has come into the picture recently enough for such practices to be in effect could likewise have two names recorded for the same reason. With both of them being valid.

    And where different trademarking or patenting of an introduction has occurred in different countries then there could be associated different naming involved also. So that an internationally distributed plant could have more than two names - all apparently considered acceptable or at least treated as such in practice.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
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