Identification: Yama-zakura - mid-season, single usually white

Discussion in 'Ornamental Cherries' started by wcutler, Apr 18, 2009.

  1. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Do I know this tree? We saw it on David Tracey's Talk and Walk in Killarney Park today, next to the Somei-yoshinos on the west side of the park. It's just coming into bloom. It seemed remarkable for the density of the branching and the bronze leaves. The flowers are not within arm's reach, but seem like 2-3cm in diameter. In the blossom photo below, the petals seem shaped like Washi-no-o, which I've only seen in photos, but they're smaller than blossoms of that cultivar described in the book and not as strong-looking and not pleated. The flowers are way too small and delicate to be Tai-haku, unless the later-opening ones will be different. These blossoms looked more like Sargentii, particularly in the last photo. I'm hoping Martin Fon, a scout on the walk, got better photos.
     

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  2. Dingren

    Dingren Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Re: What cherry? Single whites, bronze leaves, large dense tree, late mid-season

    Dear Wendy: I have taken six photos of that brown leaved cherry tree. I hope these will be helpful.

    By the way, the slide show of this walk is done. Please take a look.
    _________________________________________
    Dingren & Martin :)
     

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  3. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single whites, bronze leaves, large dense tree, late mid-season

    I think they must be a kind of Yama-zakura (Japanese hill cherry or mountain cherry).
    As far as I know Yama-zakura group cherries have flowers and leaves together. Oshima is one of them but having green leaves. But Yama-zakura and many Yama-zakura group cherry have brown leaves. (usually with rather small flowers)
     
  4. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single whites, bronze leaves, large dense tree, late mid-season

    In Kuitert's Japanese Flowering Cherries book, Yama-zakura is the Japanese name of P. serrata var. spontanea (links to the thread on trees which might or might not be those), which Douglas did call Japanese Hill Cherry.

    I swear I had no idea I'd ever seen this tree before, yet I've only posted photos of the Rampant Whatzits in at least four threads, this year and last, and Anne has posted that many as well. All those other trees have greener leaves. This was a very bronzy looking tree, but Kuitert does say of Yama-zakura "Young foliage red-brown... to bronze-green... or even fresh green". It's amazing the things that don't make a difference (apparently for these trees, the things that don't make a difference include the "shape of the tree, ... the color of the young foliage, and ... the color of the flowers, which can be pink as well. ... [T]rees may have fragrant flowers, pubescent pedicels, or flowers with double the number of petals"). There are several of the whatzits on the south side of the park, and it didn't occur to me (or anyone else today) that they would have the same name as this one. The specs seem a little broad, but that's fine - any unknown cherry with whitish leaf undersides gets the name? How would we rule anything out?

    So we're still waiting to see if the leaves have whitish undersides. I have to say I prefer the name Yama-zakura to Prunus serrulata var. spontanea. Prunus jamasakura is given as a synonym.
     
  5. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single whites, bronze leaves, large dense tree, late mid-season

    I think "Young foliage red-brown... to bronze-green... or even fresh green" means new leaves are red-brown but they will turn to green as days pass.

    As far as I checked in Japanese websites, the scientific name for Yama-zakura is "Cerasus jamasakura (Siebold ex Koidz.) H.Ohba var. jamasakura". When I search ”P. serrata var. spontanea” in my PC, nothing particular except this forum came out.
    There are lots of sites about Yama-zakura in Japanese, but only English one I found has very little written in http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2011_species.html (down in the middle)
    There are famous cherry viewing spots Yoshino-yama (Yoshino Mountain) in Nara prefecture.http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e4152.html if you click “Yoshino-report “on April 5 & 8, you can see more pictures of Yama-zakura.
    As far as I checked in Japanese web., Spire and Sargentii belong to Yama-zakura group. I think the reason is that leaves come together with flowers and they have relatively small numbers of flowers.
     
  6. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single whites, bronze leaves, large dense tree, late mid-season

    I should have fixed the typo (it's fixed now) - it's P. serrulata var. spontanea, and sites do come up. For instance, the US Dept of Agriculture Germplasm Resources Information Network (GRIN) does list:

    • hill cherry [SIZE=-2](Source: Dict Gard )[/SIZE]
    • Japanese mountain cherry [SIZE=-2](Source: Dict Gard )[/SIZE]
    • yama-zakura [SIZE=-2](Source: Dict Gard ) [Transcribed Japanese][/SIZE]
    Dict Gard is the Royal Horticultural Society dictionary of gardening. Another site is the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, which lists hill cherry or Yamazakura as other names for it.
     
  7. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single whites, bronze leaves, large dense tree, late mid-season

    Oh, sorry I didn't realize the wrong spelling. Now I could see a lot of web pages in English and some in Japanese. I don't know why some Japanese botanists not use 'prunus' for cherry. When I wrote #5, I thought Japanese wild cherries have 'Cerasus', but I was wrong. There are at least 2 type of classifying system for cherry and the one I was checking used 'Cerasus'.

    By the way, I visited Killaney Park and saw the tree. Now I can't say this is Yama-zakura.
    20090421_KillaneyPark&46th_Whatzit-Yama-zaura_Izaki 001.jpg 20090421_KillaneyPark&46th_Whatzit-yama-zakura_Izaki 002.jpg 20090421_KillaneyPark&46th_Whatzit-Yama-zaura_Izaki 003.jpg

    When I see it in pictures, it really looks like my image of 'Yama-zakura' but I think flower size is too big to be wild cherry. Yama-zakura is a wild variety of cherry which have smaller and fewer flowers than Somei-yoshino. But this tree has as many flowers as Somei-yoshinos near by and I felt flower size also is the same or even a little bigger than Somei-yoshino. (I didn't compare on the site, I regret now!)
    It has brown leaves together with flowers, there for it perhaps belongs to Yama-zakura group or modern Hybrid using Yama-zakura.
    * Yama in Japanese means mountain, hill and sometimes forest. So It can be Hill cherry and mountain cherry. And also there are Korean hill cherry ( wild cherry in Korea) and Chinese one.
     
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  8. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: What cherry? Single whites, bronze leaves, large dense tree, late mid-season

    It's too rough to think only Yama-zakura and Oshima. As Ron wrote there are tons of Cultivars related to Yama-zakura. In Japan there are about 600 cherry cultivars and the Web list which I usually check (in Japanese, done by Mr. Fujiwara, a scholar of Japanese cherries & a tree doctor) shows 450 cherries with pictures and there are 11 wild cherries and 71 cultivated varieties of those wild cherries in Yama-zakura group(Japanese hill cherry group in Japanese). Also there are many varieties using Yama-zakura to make hybrid cherries. Also there is possibility that they are not Japanese cherries. Also there is a very small possibility to be a new variety made from seedling of some Canadian or American cherry fertilized with pollens of some Japanese cherry.

    This tree has relatively big flower. So it is likely to be a cultivated cherry.
    Anyway to identify the new Cultivar is not a scouts job. We are just amateurs. Our task is to collect and show the details of the tree, flowers and location and information we gathered.
     
  9. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    These two Loyal Heights Community Center trees in Seattle are identified by Arthur Lee Jacobson in Trees of Seattle as Yama-zakura. Jacobson notes in the book that a distinguishing characteristic is the slender twigs, winter buds and leaves. The book says that the leaves are edged with very tiny teeth (and Ron B told me that they seem almost smooth-edged). Young foliage is coppery.

    I lied elsewhere and said these are nowhere near open, whereas one tree did have two open blossoms. A long way from my lens. I still think that's nowhere near open.

    The horizontal aspect struck me as very different from our mystery trees in Vancouver, as I would not have recognized ours as different from Somei-yoshino or Akebono if they'd had the shape in this photo, but Ron B pointed out that this is a wild species, so there would be a lot of variation in the tree shape as well as other details. In the Japanese festival magazine, the hillside photo of Yama-zakuras (Japanese hill cherries) shows a lot of variation in tree shape.
     

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  10. bgboydballard

    bgboydballard Member

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    From Bill Boyd, I live near the Yama-zakura trees at Loyal Heights in Seattle referenced by Wendy Cutler. Attached photos show new blossoms and leaves as of Feb 28 2010.
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2010
  11. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Catalog of single white, mid-season, double-serrated leaves emerge with blossoms

    I think this thread originally started from Wendy’s photo of whatzit in Killaney Park. The tree locates between 2 Somei-yoshinos in the park near 46th Street. I’m waiting photos of flowers this year. But no one posts it. Is it still not blooming yet? I think it is different from most of trees on this thread. I’d like to see the pictures of flowers and leaves.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2011
  12. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Raleigh at 47th

    Raleigh at 47th
    It's finished, Mariko [edited 20100324 by wcutler: that was totally wrong, as it turned out]. And I thought all those other trees we've cataloged were like this one, which is why I started the other thread The other mid-season single-white blossoms before double-serrated leaves , as Joseph Lin's photos of the Gravelely trees showed bronze leaves, which I thought were like these. But now I think all those others are the same as each other, and this one is different. It doesn't look that finished from these photos, but I didn't have much choice of blossoms to photograph. The tree looks totally brown (from the leaves) now.

    I have to correct my comment in the thread first quoted, on the leaf photos, as Anne wasn't aware of this tree and has been photographing the group of trees on 48th. We do need to get leaves from this one.

    March 18, 2010
    20100318_Raleigh47th_HillCherry_Cutler_DSC05544.jpg 20100318_Raleigh47th_HillCherry_Cutler_DSC05543.jpg 20100318_Raleigh47th_HillCherry_Cutler_DSC05545.jpg 20100318_Raleigh47th_HillCherry_Cutler_DSC05550.jpg

    March 24, 2010
    20100324_Raleigh47th_Cutler_DSC05836.jpg 20100324_Raleigh47th_Cutler_DSC05841.jpg 20100324_Raleigh47th_Cutler_DSC05842.jpg 20100324_Raleigh47th_Cutler_DSC05845.jpg 20100324_Raleigh47th_Cutler_DSC05848.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  13. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    These are pictures of Yama-zakura in Tokyo from March 20 to 22, 2010. In Tokyo Somei-yoshino started to bloom on March 22 this year. So those Yama-zakuras started blooming before Somei-yoshino.
    I went to the lecture titled ‘Classification of Cherry’. The lecturer said Yama-zakura varied a lot. Because every Yama-zakura has their own generic code. They are not like Somei-yoshino which is multiplied by people from one specific tree. So I post the pictures of all the trees I have. I posted tree shape picture first, then flower pictures of the tree.
    Yama-zakura can be a very big tree. So you can’t see flowers well. I thought flowers were very small and not beautiful before. But my good digital camera can enlarge them 150 times. So you can see the beautiful flowers.

    Shinjuku Gyoen, March 20, 2010
    20100319_Shinjuku-gyoen4_MasayukuIzaki 129.jpg 20100319_Shinjuku-gyoen4_MasayukuIzaki 132.jpg
    20100319_Shinjuku-gyoen4_MasayukuIzaki 133.jpg 20100319_Shinjuku-gyoen4_MasayukuIzaki 134.jpg

    Koukyo (Imperial Palace Garden), March 21,
    20100320_Koukyo2_Yama-zakura1_MasayukuIzaki 001.jpg 20100320_Koukyo2_Yama-zakura1_MasayukuIzaki 003.jpg 20100320_Koukyo2_Yama-zakura1_MasayukuIzaki 004.jpg
    20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 008.jpg 20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 009.jpg 20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 010.jpg
    20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 011.jpg 20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 012.jpg 20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 013.jpg
    20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 019.jpg 20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 021.jpg 20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 022.jpg
    20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 023.jpg 20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 024.jpg
    20100320_Koukyo5_Yama-zakura&Shidare_MasayukuIzaki 025.jpg
    20100320_Koukyo7_Yama-zakura_MasayukuIzaki 002.jpg 20100320_Koukyo7_Yama-zakura_MasayukuIzaki 003.jpg 20100320_Koukyo7_Yama-zakura_MasayukuIzaki 004.jpg

    Asuka Yama Park, March 22, 2010
    20100322_Asukayama_Kita-ku_MasayukiIzaki 030.jpg 20100322_Asukayama_Kita-ku_MasayukiIzaki 033.jpg 20100322_Asukayama_Kita-ku_MasayukiIzaki 036.jpg
    20100322_Asukayama_Kita-ku_MasayukiIzaki 040.jpg 20100322_Asukayama_Kita-ku_MasayukiIzaki 042.jpg

    Koishikawa Botanical Garden, March 22, 2010
    There is a hybrid of Yama-zakura in Koishikawa Botanical Garden.
    Cultivar name was written in 2 Chinese characters. I don’t know how to read. It might be Gun-zakura or Kori-zakura. Scientific name is Prunus Jamazakura Sieb. ex Koids cv Nitida. It was the first time I have seen this name. I think Koishikawa Botanical Garden has different Classifying System.
    20100322_KoishikawaBotanicGarden_MasayukiIzaki 001.jpg 20100322_KoishikawaBotanicGarden_MasayukiIzaki 003.jpg
    20100322_KoishikawaBotanicGarden_MasayukiIzaki 005.jpg 20100322_KoishikawaBotanicGarden_MasayukiIzaki 007.jpg
     
  14. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Raleigh at 47th

    That was so wrong. Today it's in full bloom! I swear someone has replaced the tree I saw on March 18 with this one. What a stunning change, from brown and dried-up looking to white and very showy. I added some photos from this evening to posting #12 in this thread. I think this one, and only this one, looks like the photos in the Seattle postings.

    Here are three photos from last year, the first two yours, Mariko, and the third Martin Fon's.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 3, 2011
  15. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Re: Catalog of single white, mid-season, double-serrated leaves emerge with blossoms

    Does "Raleigh at 47th" have an almond fragrance?
     
  16. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Catalog of single white, mid-season, double-serrated leaves emerge with blossoms

    No, not almond. Last night I thought no smell, or maybe a bit like grass. Today, the sprig I picked last night smells a bit more, still like grass. There was no fragrance around the tree.

    These leaves do not look like they're going to be double-serrated.
     
  17. Anne Eng

    Anne Eng Active Member 10 Years

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    Raleigh and Killarney Comparison

    The Maverick at Raleigh and E. 47 is definitely not the same as the trees on E.48 and Killarney, and others in the rest of this thread. The first two pictures show the flowers from the Raleigh tree.

    Compare that with what the trees on E. 48/Killarney look like now (Shot #3).

    In the last photo, Raleigh's blossoms (on the right) are larger, in corymbs, and have recurved sepals as compared to the flowers of E. 48/Killarney (on the left side).
     

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  18. Anne Eng

    Anne Eng Active Member 10 Years

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    The Maverick's Mother at VanDusen

    Here is the Cherry infamously labelled "Jo-nioi" in VanDusen Gardens' Rhodo Path (the first four pictures) on March 26, 2010. It has flowers in corymbs, with recurved sepals.
    20100326_VanDusenJNTree_Eng_4784.JPG 20100326_VanDusenJNTree_Eng_4787.JPG 20100326_VanDusenJNTFlowers_Eng_4785.JPG 20100326_VanDusenJNFlowerLeaf_Eng_4786.JPG

    Compare with the Maverick's tree and flowers at Raleigh and E.47 (next two pictures).
    20100325_RaleighE47Tree_Eng_4766.JPG 20100325_RaleighE47Flowers_Eng_4768.JPG

    The last two shots are close-ups of the blossom size, Raleigh's on the grass and VanDusen's on the leaves.
    20100325_RaleighE47BlosSize_Eng_4771.JPG 20100326_VanDusenJNBlossomsize_Eng_4783.JPG

    Next confirmation will be for fragrance, which we will attempt after we dry off from the rains.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2011
  19. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Catalog of single white, mid-season, double-serrated leaves emerge with blossoms

    Great discovery, Anne! Raleigh and E.47 wasn’t an isolated tree. It must have some roots somewhere!
    Infamous Jo-nioi in VanDusen has such flowers. I knew the tree, but I haven’t seen it blooming.

    Of course they are not Jo-nioi. Jo means good (jo=first class, tyu=second class, ge=third class) and nioi means smell or fragrance. No one felt fragrance.
    But in case, I’ll attach Japanese site to see real flowers of Jo-nioi, Taki-nioi and Surugadai-nioi (One in Nitobe Garden). Jo-nioi has green young leaves. Taki-nioi and Surugadai-Nioi have brown (purplish brown)young leaves. They have similar flowers. Some Botanists think Taki-nioi and Surugadai-nioi are same. All of them are kinds of cherries presented to Washington DC in 1912.

    Jo-nioi : Page 83 of Gakken Book
    Kono-hana-sakuya-hime,
    Ishikawa Forest Experiment Station
    National Institute of Genetics (in Japanese, Leaves of this site are greenish brown.)

    Taki-nioi: Kono-hana-sakuya-hime,
    Ishikawa Forest Experiment Station

    Surugadai-nioi: Page 84 of Gakken Book & Page 62 of small Japanese book
    Kono-hana-sakuya-hime,
    Ishikawa Forest Experiment Station      
     National Institute of Genetics (in Japanese)

    They have very strong fragrance. Flowers have 5 to 8 usual petals and very often have a few staminodes like flag.
    (Kono-hana-sakuya-hime, National Institute of Genetics and Ishikawa Forest Experiment Station are the names of the sites.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2010
  20. Anne Eng

    Anne Eng Active Member 10 Years

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    Re: Catalog of single white, mid-season, double-serrated leaves emerge with blossoms

    Here are the leaves for the tree at Raleigh and E.47 (Killarney Park) on June 30, 2011.
     

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  21. eteinindia

    eteinindia Active Member VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Re: Catalog of single white, mid-season, double-serrated leaves emerge with blossoms

    Thank you, Anne.
    For me it looks like they aren't double-serrated. They looks like fine single serrated.
    Are there hairs on the front or back of leaves or on stems?

    By the way the first photo shows red cherries on the tree. If you pick them when they are ripe, wash the flesh off, keep in dark place (not dry?!) during summer, seed them in autumn, then they will spring out next spring. You might get your new cherries.
    Last year I collected seeds at Koishikawa Botanical Garden. Now I'm growing my young cherries in my small veranda.
     
  22. Douglas Justice

    Douglas Justice Active Member UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society 10 Years

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    Re: Syodoi? Yama-zakura? - Single white, bronze leaves, large dense tree, late mid

    With Anne Eng's posting of leaves from the Raleigh and 47th tree, I think we can safely call it Prunus speciosa var. spontanea (yama-zakura = Japanese hill cherry).
     
  23. Anne Eng

    Anne Eng Active Member 10 Years

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    Re: Catalog of single white, mid-season, double-serrated leaves emerge with blossoms

    eteinindia wrote:
    There are no hairs on the leaves, front or back. The red stems are also hairless.
     
  24. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Bill Boyd, who posted photos of the Yama-zakura Loyal Heights tree in Seattle in 2010 (posting #10) has sent me a nice set of photos from today. Bill mentioned that all of the blossoms on this tree were high out of reach except for one offshoot down low, which he photographed.
     
  25. wcutler

    wcutler Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    Here are a few photos today from the unlabeled tree at VanDusen that we're calling Yama-zakura. It looks to me like the ones in Mariko's photos and the one at Raleigh.
     

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