What's this then?

Discussion in 'Plants and Biodiversity Stumpers' started by Michael F, Nov 23, 2005.

  1. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Anyone going to try?
     

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  2. Joe Keller

    Joe Keller Active Member 10 Years

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    I'll take a shot, is it Pinus patula? Joe
     
  3. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Nope, sorry!
     
  4. jimmyq

    jimmyq Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    weeping eastern white pine?
    ka Pinus strobus pendula
     
  5. pierrot

    pierrot Active Member 10 Years

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    pinus coulteri
    big cone pine?
    or
    Pinus armandi
     
  6. Weekend Gardener

    Weekend Gardener Active Member 10 Years

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    Pinus palustris?
     
  7. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Nope, nope . . .
     
  8. wrygrass2

    wrygrass2 Active Member 10 Years

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    Pinus rigida?

    Let me answer that question, Nope.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2005
  9. Dee M.

    Dee M. Active Member 10 Years

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    Himalayan pine, Pinus wallichiana? I wish it was hardier here, I think it is just borderline but they were are some nice ones at the H.C. Locks in Seattle.
     
  10. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Sorry, two more "no"s!

    Dee - how far west in WA? If you're west of the Coast Range you should be able to grow P. wallichiana no trouble; in the Seattle - Olympia - Kelso valley, it would probably be OK (and certainly so if you used one of the hardier Afghan origins). East of the Cascades, no chance.
     
  11. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    "No chance"? One in Spokane was 86' high in 1988. Might be some variation due to provenance.
     
  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Sure it isn't P. x schwerinii, like e.g. the "P. wallichiana" at Morton Arb. and the Arnold Arb? I bet it is.

    PS weren't you asking for tricky ident questions? Aren't you going to have a go? There's enough there to ident this one.
     
  13. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    I of course expected you would say it must be the hybrid. I don't remember the fine details of the tree myself, A.L. Jacobson and R. Van Pelt are listed as nominators. As I remember it there is nothing about its general appearance to send up a red flag.
     
  14. pierrot

    pierrot Active Member 10 Years

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    pinus sabiniana
     
  15. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Sorry, no . .

    I'll add a pic of the cone it was grown from in a few hours
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2005
  16. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Perhaps your clue suggests that you chose quite a rare specimen. It appears to me to be a pine with long, bluish needles in clusters of three, so I thought that you offered a young specimen of Pinus canariensis, which I have never personally seen, but which I understand has green needles when a little older.
     
  17. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    It looks like Pinus patula, so it's probably another Sec. Oocarpae species.
     
  18. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Sorry, two more "no"s . . .

    Here's the cone the seed came from - let's see if anyone can get it now (when clicked on, approx life size)
     

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  19. pierrot

    pierrot Active Member 10 Years

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    aleppo pine pinus halepensis
     
  20. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Sorry, no again!
     
  21. pierrot

    pierrot Active Member 10 Years

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    aaaaaaaaaarrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    pleaase put me out of my missery someone!!

    pierrot
     
  22. Laurie

    Laurie Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    A young Pinus pinceana, rare in cultivation and considered as possibly an endangered species in Mexico.
     
  23. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    We have a winner! Pinus pinceana it is!

    Grew it from seed I collected in Mexico a few years ago. It is listed by IUCN as "Lower risk - near threatened".

    On identification, the following points clinch it:
    1. The needle sheath being deciduous (fully fallen on the top right needle fascicle, and starting to drop on several other fascicles). This counts out all but two 'hard' pines (subgenus Pinus; the exceptions being P. leiophylla and P. lumholtzii). Of the species suggested, this removes Pp. patula, coulteri, palustris, rigida, sabineana, canariensis, halepensis; these all have fully persistent sheaths.

    2. The needles being in fascicles of 3. Most people spotted this, but it does count out all the 'white' pines (Pinus sect. Strobus). Of the species suggested, this removes Pp. strobus, armandii, wallichiana; these all have 5 per fascicle.

    3. The young needle fascicles (left edge of pic) staying connate (the three needles stuck together) until they are full size. Very few pines do this, nearly all of them in the pinyon-foxtail pine grouping. This excludes the two hard pine exceptions above, Pp. leiophylla and lumholtzii; these both separate their needles well before the needles reach full length

    4. The needle length and their being very slender. On needle length this counts out the foxtail pines (Pp. aristata, balfouriana, longaeva), and nearly all the pinyons, while the slender needles count out Pp. bungeana and gerardiana. This leaves the following options out of all pines:
    Pinus pinceana: needles in 3's
    Pinus nelsonii: needles in 3's, but remaining permanently connate, not spreading at all, and also not pendulous
    Pinus rzedowskii: needles in 4's and 5's
    Pinus maximartinezii: needles in 5's
    Pinus squamata: needles in 5's

    Thus, P. pinceana it is.

    Some photos I took in the wild:
    http://www.pinetum.org/PhotoMPF.htm

    Michael
     
  24. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    This does look like it may have stomata concentrated on one side of the needle (unlike Jelecote pine), cones with large seeds (pine nuts). Van Gelderen/Van Hoey Smith show a weeping pinyon with upright needles (and shoots), but it must be called weeping for some reason.
     
  25. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Hi Ron,

    The branches as well as the needles weep - look at my pics from Mexico (edited into above post)

    PS I always thought Jelecote was a brand name of a non-drop gloss paint? :-)
     

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