What is this maple tree?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by benishien, Mar 16, 2008.

  1. alex66

    alex66 Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    oh Beni good return!! leaves similar to salix in last pics !!LOL ,koto no ito is the name on pics is correct?
    in your nursery is avaible acer Tegmentosum Joe Witt?
     
  2. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    It was a 2 foot tall, over fertilized koto no ito. At least it was labeled koto no ito. I got it from East Fork Nursery (a maple society member and active forum user) or maybe Laceleaf Nursery. Both relay good mail order maple nurseries and good friends of mine. I buy allot from East Fork Nursery and the Laceleaf Nursery guy buddy is my grafting teacher. His website has a great DVD on grafting and all the supplies you need including root stock and fresh scion wood. I sold the tree last year so I haven't seen it in awhile. I miss it it had a great bonsai look about it. Maybe the angle through you guy's. I like to take shots from down low looking up through the canopy even on small trees. I do not think that tree was even 2 feet tall relay.
    have a good day, josh
     
  3. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    BY the way that was not the mystery tree. I am going through my pictures to post on the photo gallery portion and have been putting some of my favorite one's when I have been posting. I know it is confusing and I should not have done it. That is why we have a section for pictures. Sorry about that. From now on I will only post pictures of the tree in question. Although I did take some side by side pictures with my fairy hair which might be worthy. I will post more pictures of the mystery tree tonight around 6 pm.
     
  4. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    OK pictures not having to do with the mystery have been removed or should I say moved to the photo section. Here are some pictures of the mystery tree leafing out. Also one of the pictures has a fairy hair next to it to show differences such as growth habit and I noticed the fairy hair still has some bigger than thread like leaves. No where near palmatum but more substantial size than the mystery tree. You my have to look closely.
     

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  5. xman

    xman Active Member

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    Last edited: Apr 4, 2008
  6. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    Well untill I have my plant confirmed as one I can not say I have ever seen one. If you read on the plant koto ito komachi they say it's leave will always be fine like hair and never put on a how should I say it.. a bigger leaf? If you look in vertrees/ gregory's japanese maples book you can see a picture of the tree vertrees found and named koto ito komachi and all leaves are like thread. But I have talked to that nursery (small plants) about purchasing a koto ito komachi from them and what they said is this. There is a very limited supply, usaly only 3 or 4 available every 2 to 3 years, sometimes longer because it barely grows and it only puts on a big enough burst of growth every few years that can be grafted with. This to me sounds like they actualy know what they are talking about and I think in this case it is just the picture that is wrong, and not the plant they are selling. What they have said matches what I was told by Frank Byles who is possibly the man with most of the vertrees collection which he inherited from his father who got the after vertree's died because he was J. D. Vertree's Maplewood nursery partner. I know every one claims to have the collection and actualy frank donated nearly everything in his collection recently to a local arboretum so even he no longer has a lot of them anymore. Also he told me to never buy a koto ito komachi that is under 5 years old because they for some reason tend to fail even after 5 years.

    This is more like what all the leaves should look like.
    http://www.smallplants.com/images/acerkotoitokomachi_leaf.jpg

    Also here is a good picture of what I think is koto ito komachi
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/redtreefarms/2059365337/
     
  7. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Thanks for those good links Beni.

    Do you grow 'Fairy hair' ?
     
  8. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    Actually the last set of pictures I put up the one in the middle with two trees in it is a side by side with fairy hair (on the left) and the mystery tree (on the right). I thought it might rule out the possibility of fairy hair if I showed how much younger my fairy hair is and how much taller and how much farther apart the buds are in comparison. Also I have noticed that fairy hair has some leaves that are less thread like although still fine there are some bigger than the rest, which I believe koto ito komachi is not supposed to do. My fairy hair came from Buchholz and Buchholz Nursery so there is no question on that one. I would like to talk to talon someday about it. I have heard that fairy hair maybe just a vigorous sport off of a koto ito komachi but I believe he says it was a seedling of his and not a sport at all, though like I said I have never spoke to him. I do notice differences between the unnamed tree and fairy hair so I would say it is unlikely they were ever on the same tree. But you never know I have a vigorous green branch on one of my ukigumo's that looks nothing like the tree and has stunted center lobes so never say never. For no I say they are two different tree's and I will give talon the credit until someone can prove it. They look different to me and I have never heard of koto ito komcahi ever growing as much as a fairy hair. Uh anyways, I got a little side tracked. The answer is yes.
     

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  9. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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  10. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    Koto ito komachi not koto no ito. It was just some debate I ran across trying to find out info on koto ito komachi. There is a thread on this forum called does "koto ito komachi relay exist?". I have never heard anyone say it was from koto no ito. Koto no ito gets over 6ft tall, koto ito komachi around 3ft, and fairy hair I have heard around 6ft or more. By vigorous I mean that my fairy hair is 2 maybe 3 years old and close to 20" tall, were as the mystery tree I would say is 7 years or more and 15" tall. Plus from a grafting stand point fairy hair has on average 1" to 2"s between nodes and the biggest space on the mystery tree is 1/4" which is nearly impossible to graft with. Were as koto no ito blows both of them away and will usually put on a foot a year for the first 7 years or so, fairy hair probably 6 to 8" although I have heard claims of a foot a year, and the koto ito komachi around 1/2" a year. I do not mean vigorous in the way a aconitifolium will put out 4 feet or more but only between the mentioned trees. If that makes any sense. It is late and I am tired but I could not go to bed thinking I mislead you.
     
  11. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    I'd be happy with 6-8" from FH, Beni. I was expecting less, this is my first spring with the plant. KNI looks like it could be vigorous now that it is settled in.

    Appreciate your explanation.

    I'll post pics when they have leavves.

    Gil
     
  12. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    By the way no numbers are set in stone it seems as there are so many other factors that effect a cultivar. First with any plant there is conditions such as light and soil that can make a huge difference in size. A big leaf maple I have read can grow 10 feet in one year. I have never seen this happen and that is because most numbers and information given on any plant are in the best circumstances. Also most grafters use acer palmatum seedlings for root stock. Because of this anything can happen. From what I understand about maple history everything can trace its roots back to acer palmatum being the original. So you never know what a seedling is going to do. If it is a tree that wants to be 60 ft tall you will have a dwarf tree that should never get past 3 feet suddenly be 6 feet. In the picture below you can see great difference between the sumi nagashi seedlings, some are green some are red one is dissected.
     

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