What is this maple tree?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by benishien, Mar 16, 2008.

  1. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    Hello everyone. I have been working at a big maple nursery on the weekends, doing inventory quality control and identification. I came across this tree buried in a corner and grabbed it (bought it, not stole it) right away. I think I know what it is but I do not want to say, out of fear of jinxing myself. The tree that I think I found laying in the cobwebs is very rare and I have been searching for it a long time and though I have found the name hundreds of times I have never seen a real one for sale. Well I better stop I do not want to lead anyone in the direction I am leaning. I want your opinions on this. It is just starting to leaf out so it will be hard, but the leaves in the pot are Linearilobum similar to fairy hair or old koto no ito growth. The buds are opening and you can see enough to no they are Linearilobum. I wanted to show pictures before it has leafed out because the bud spacing is very close and judging from the bark on the tree I would say it is old and dwarf. I thought it might help to see this before it leaf's out and this becomes hard to see. I will post more pictures in a couple of weeks when it has leafed out.Thank you.
    Maple season is here ya!
     

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  2. natureman

    natureman Active Member

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    Hard to tell without foliage. But I can sorta make out a leaf. Looks like Acer palmatum var. dissectum (A type of Japanese Maple)
     
  3. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    C'mon Beni what's your hunch?

    There are many with the very close bud spacing. How did the roots look?

    Gil
     
  4. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    i vote for Butterfly!
     
  5. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Alex I think Beni is hoping for 'Koto ito komachi'.

    Tell us Beni.
     
  6. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    This may help. Here are last years leaves and the tree has opened more so you can see more of the leaf shape and spring color. As for saying what I think it does not matter what I think, unless others also think it to be true. This is what helps keep cultivars true so they are not lost. There was no tag and I was doing inventory so there is no record. I know it will be easier in the summer but with the linearilobum cultivars sometimes something simple like what color it is when it is leafing out in spring can mean a great deal of difference. I am growing and have grown allot of linearilobum tree's, fairy hair, villa toranto, red pygmy, beni otake, koto no ito, etc. and this one is not like any I have seen. Even if it was koto ito komachi which one? I have been reading this forums posts on that subject for along time because I have been looking for that tree and so far the only Koto Ito Komachi's I have found have been over priced Koto no ito's. I have a three year old fairy hair and the leaves are simular but it is already bigger (21" tall and wide) than the tree I have found.
    16" tall, 9" at it's widest point and has a half inch caliper (the scion wood not the rootstock). I have heard talk of a Vertrees Koto, a Japanese Koto, a Oregon Koto, and an even older Koto, all different. I have also heard that the Koto no ito being sold is not the true one and the the true koto no ito is actual alot more like koto ito komachi. This is getting wordy. I am just hoping someone recognizes it.
    thank you to all who try
     

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  7. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I have both Koto no ito and Koto ito komachi and they are very different, in size certainly, but also in leaf width. Koto ito komachi is truly thread width. Neither of my trees leaf out in that intense color. As to varieties, I really do not know. My Koto no ito is about 10 years old, is 6' tall and looks like any photo I've seen or description I've read. The Koto ito komachi is 5-6 years old and about 14" tall. It is in a container and looks like a small tree, very bonsai like, with no pruning. There are others here who could give more scientific/historical information about these cultivars, and I would be interested as well. My Koto ito komachi came from Mountain Maples, but I have no idea about availability now.
     
  8. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    Did you get your tree last year? If you did then I will say " You! Your the one!" I was going to buy a koto ito komachi from them last year but when I did it was already sold. At least it went to a good home. They do not have any more. I am on the waiting list and I am not the first person on the list. I am actualy on a lot of waiting lists for the koto ito komachi. But waiting lists are good in this case at least I should not be ripped off with the wrong tree. Here is a quote from another forum I am into. This should make things a little harder. If it is one of those trees. For all I know it could be an extreemly stunted villa taranto.

    "Part of the problem in Koto ito komachi that came
    in from Japan was that it was not the same plant as
    what Mr. Vertrees claimed he raised from seed.
    Actually that Maple that Mr. Vertrees shows in his
    book as being Koto ito komachi was raised by
    someone else in Oregon and was given to J.D. The
    plant that J.D. had is different than the standard
    form Koto ito komachi that others had, so there
    was a meeting of the minds to determine that the
    plant grown in Oregon had to be a form of another
    plant that came into the US from Japan in 1972
    from the Kleim importations. There was already
    a Koto ito komachi in the US prior to 1972 that
    Mr. Kleim had that he felt was not the same plant
    as the Koto ito komachi that came to him and
    Mr. Goddard in 1972. "


    Also this was in the same replay which is what leads me to beleave I may have found the true tree, but I do not personaly know this person so I can not say anything for his credentials.

    "If we see yellow or green colored modified leaves the Maple is
    more likely the second form of Koto no ito. It is this
    Maple that has been sold a lot in Oregon as being Koto
    ito komachi.

    If the modified leaves are pink or a cerise pink they are
    Koto ito komachi. Koto ito komachi (which means old
    harp strings) will leaf out in the Spring all with the stringy
    lobed leaves."
     
  9. jacquot

    jacquot Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Very interesting indeed. I will report as exactly as I can the early color which will come in the next weeks. I got my tree at least 3 years ago, so no, that wasn't me last year. Given the source, I would assume this is of Vertrees origin.
     
  10. whis4ey

    whis4ey Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Your quoted reply, Beni, sounds like it is from Jim. If it is, it is well worth due consideration :)
     
  11. xman

    xman Active Member

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  12. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    of course not is butterfly sorry!
     
  13. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    Nice link. I have been looking for pictures to compare. The koto is in fall color but still similar to what I have right now. If it is a koto ito komachi I am going to document everything with thousands of pictures and flood the internet and what ever books may want pictures to help clarify the cultivar. Most cultivars I can identify in a half hour, even when they are dormant. There are a few that do not have many pictures and info out there, red cloud, dr. seuss and a bunch that need clarifying I am sure every one is aware of the ao shime no uchi shidare, shinobuga oka, linearilobum, and scolopendrifolium mess out there. Most nurseries say they are one and the same but if you read up on the tree's there are differences between them. I have also grown them and seen the differences in growth, fall color, and flowering. I had to look for them hard though, most places sold scolopendrifolium under all the names. I do not want to be like The Nishiki Nursery guy and sell 2 year old 3 foot tall Koto No Ito's on ebay as "Ultra Rare, Extremely Hard To Find" koto ito komachi's. I will not call it koto ito komachi till everyone agrees.
     
  14. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    As a consideration it is generally regarded as
    being courteous, prudent to some people, to
    cite where the quote being used originated
    from and the name of the person that wrote
    the information.

    In this particular case I happen know the person
    that wrote the passage that was quoted and know
    which forum format host it was obtained from,
    without permission from the forum host owner
    or moderator or persons in charge of the format
    host site, which solidifies the nature of online
    professionalism that we list the name of the
    person or their online name and site in which the
    quote came from if we want to list it or use the
    content from another forum format host. The
    principle is the same if and when we want to
    "snag" (borrow or steal) a photo from a web
    site to use for non commercial purposes (with
    permission if we want to use that same photo
    for commercial means) and for perhaps for
    educational benefit as well. If we were to
    bring a photo from the Esveld web site into
    this forum we are or should be bound to tell
    where that photo came from.

    It is in the original host site is where members
    can entertain the notion of challenging or asking
    about the qualifications and credentials in plants
    of the author, not in this forum in which that said
    person may or may not be a member of.

    From what I was told yesterday there was no contact
    made with this person prior to the quote from him
    entering into this forum. Now, it may be too late
    for the authors involvement to expand more on this
    issue when asked or called upon and that to me is
    rather sad but that is how he or she may want it to
    remain to be as of now. This particular person is a
    he but he is representing and acting on behalf of a
    she in two other forum format hosts.

    If we were to do a little homework online we
    can reasonably reason from those other forum
    format hosts that the author does seem to have
    some credentials in other type plants online.
    What does he know about Maples is the question
    that I would ask myself about him, if I did not
    already know the person pretty darn well. It
    should go without saying but is not always the
    case that is conveyed that based on what he
    wrote about Koto ito komachi and from what
    I perceive from his comments on Koto no ito
    that the author has some insight into these plants
    from being around them that is way ahead of
    me in what he seems to know about them. To
    mention names of prominent people of Maples
    from the recent past he must have known or
    knew of and presents dates as they relate to
    the plant he apparently knows something the
    rest of us are not fully aware of is how I have
    to look at it. You bet, I'd take what he wrote
    at face value and backtrack some if need be
    at first and later move on forward from there.

    Thanks Sam, I know Jim appreciates it!

    Now, I'll yield my own philosophy in that
    any plant can be considered rare if none of
    you know how to identify it when you finally
    see or have the right one of it. I'll give you'
    a clue now that most all of the latilobatum,
    scolopendrifoilum, linearifolium and ribbon
    leaf linear forms most of which comprise
    the linearilobums along with the heptalobum
    and triflorum linear leafed forms (Ron,
    sometime tell me the name of the true ribbon
    leafs, I used to know the name and have since
    lost it out of memory) are indeed rare. Why
    are they so rare? Because they generally do
    not live long for people! It is not the names
    of the plants that are so rare but having them
    for any real length of time for most people
    is quite rare. That is precisely why having
    or seeing a 40 year old Filifera purpurea here
    or an Atrolineare in Holland and in gardens
    in Great Britain are so uncommon to see in
    a landscape most anywhere. They are a short
    lived plant and have always been. The Kansai
    and the old, true form Koto no ito on their
    own roots in Japan generally have lived the
    longest for people there but the green and
    red leafed forms just have historically not
    done well for people for extensive periods
    of time elsewhere. They are all very rare
    today, not easily found from growers and
    some are new names for old form plants
    such as the red form of Koto no ito from
    Japan having an Americanized name now.

    Jim
     
  15. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    for maples lovers: www.esveld.nl have in stock jm koto ito komachi....
     
  16. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    sorry
     

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    Last edited: Mar 29, 2008
  17. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    ok I erased it.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 29, 2008
  18. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Beni,

    Don't let anything get between you and your passion.





    Do you not know, my son, with what little understanding the world is ruled?*



    *Pope Julius
     
  19. NJACER

    NJACER Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Beni,

    I think that you are wrong about your comments about The Maple Society. I do not think that Jim’s comments represent the Maples Society but are his opinions. I joined the Maple Society a little over two years ago and have attended the last two meetings. Everyone I have met has been wonderful and happy to share their knowledge of these trees. I have been collecting for somewhere around 17 years and consider myself new at this. I have personally known some of the old time nurserymen on the east coast I find this group kind and always willing to help and offer advice. If you do choose to cancel your membership, I think that it will be your loss and I am sorry to hear that.

    Please remember that in reading these posts that you and others are on an online forum. Everyone on these forums is entitled to their own opinions. Wright or wrong as long as they are not personal attacks they are just opinions. Jim often provides valuable information even if he sometimes may lack in his presentation skills. Learn to read and gather the good from these posts and don’t let the bad hinder your passion for maples.

    Good luck with your new find and please keep posting about your tree and it’s progress.

    Ed
     
  20. KarinL

    KarinL Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    People who post a lot on forums always have a mixed record... some very good posts, some very bad. Beni, I would certainly not make your plans about relationships with a whole community on the basis of a single post from a single person. I'm also looking forward to more pictures of this plant as it leafs out, since it's the closest I'm ever likely to get to that plant, whatever it turns out to be!
     
  21. alex66

    alex66 Rising Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Beni with my "spaghetti "english is difficult for me write my correct mind..but please reply again ,if you want ,use my pics or my post,no problem !!!!
    P.S. when the play is hard the hard man play ..+o- ... the movie "the blues brothers "
    Ps 2 Poetry which Julius? II ? (Cappella Sistina)
     
  22. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Alex it was Julius III

    From what I've read about his reign he may have been referring to himself.

    Gil

    Beni

    More pics
     
  23. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Nice 'Ukigumo'.
     
  24. benishien

    benishien Active Member Maple Society

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    Sorry if I took it to far. I have been working none stop and I have never been good at being bossed around. Also a vine maple seedling I had from last year that looked like a ukigumo did not make it through the winter and I am bummed. I have some more variegated vine maple seedlings but that was the best and it never got big enough to graft. The mystery tree has some leaves on it now but I am going to wait another week before I take some pictures so there is more of a difference than last time.Below was a picture of a koto no ito sorry should not be putting up pictures I do not wish to cause any confusion. The picture will be in the photo section shortly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2008
  25. Poetry to Burn

    Poetry to Burn Active Member

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    Beni,

    What is the plant pictured in your post?
     

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