What causes colouration when it is too early?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by stephen2602, Jan 27, 2004.

  1. stephen2602

    stephen2602 Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canberra Australia
    Greetings fellow listers,

    A couple of weeks ago, we had a fortnight of very hot weather (+90 F) and now I am seeing quite dramatic colouration in my A.P. Amoenum and Matsumurae Japanese Maples. In particular, my Osakazuki maples have outstanding red leaves in some parts of the tree. Would this be caused by stress from the heat? Also my Acer Shirasawanum (Aireum I think) appears to be colouring up. I have covered it to prevent it from losing too many leaves which is quite normal for it to do so during our Summer but it always grows a second set of leaves after they drop off.

    I think it is amazing that the Dissectums handle the heat as well as they do considering they appear to be such a delicate plant.

    Regards

    Stephen
     
  2. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Yes, stress from the heat and in conjunction with lack of water flow can cause Maple
    leaves to color up before their normal time period of the year. I have no way of knowing
    your climatic conditions, your soil type, your watering system set up and other variables
    but I can give you a quick idea as to what we face during the summers for us.

    It is not unusual for us to see three different stages of leaf drop due to a combination of
    factors such as our heat, hot winds and timing of our watering. I'll admit that I am not the
    brightest person around as I will grow a variety of Maples in full sun in a western exposure
    right in harms way of everything I tell people not to do when I am asked. The purpose
    for my lack of common sense is so I can force the Maples to adapt to our conditions
    and also to see for myself which varieties can withstand full sun. Call it an experiment
    if you wish.

    The dilemma we have here is that even with frequent and deep waterings many plants
    cannot "pump" water fast enough during our intense hot summers. Meaning that even
    while we are watering the trees there is leaf dessication going on while we are in fact
    watering the plant, in that all we can do is try to prevent the whole leaf or leaves from
    dessicating. Leaf tip and leaf margin burning will happen to us almost at will and to be
    honest there are times during the summer we want some of the leaves to burn, drop off
    and then new vegetative buds form and thus another set of growth appears for us. It is
    just one of the growth spurt stages that is being induced by climatic and environmental
    factors and does not cause us alarm unless the entire plant drops all of its leaves and then
    we are more than just concerned.

    When the leaves become stressed they will develop colors pretty much the same in
    color as they do in the fall. We may not get to see true fall colors here when we are
    supposed to but we do see fall colors a lot during the summer months.
     
  3. Elmore

    Elmore Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    North Alabama USA
    experiments

    Hi Mr. Shep. Have you tried a product from the Bay Area called "Pro-TeKt" ? Basically a supplemental potassium and silicon spray. Elmore
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Hi Elmore:

    < Hi Mr. Shep. Have you tried a product from the Bay Area called "Pro-TeKt" ? Basically a
    supplemental potassium and silicon spray. Elmore >

    No, I have not tried it and to be honest I would be quite hesitant to use it. I do not
    want to go into the physiological aspects of a plant as that will leave me as being
    fair game (open season) for the people in here that know that subject far better than
    I do. I will say that we would not use the chemical sprays on Citrus to better protect
    the leaves, twigs, branches and more importantly the fruit from super cold temps as we
    do not want to limit the amount of respiration going on within the plant exited through
    its leaves. I was the one for us that balked at the sprays because I wanted the leaves to
    be able to breathe and respire without any artificial interference.

    I can check and see how the Pro-tekt works and get back to you if necessary. With you
    having such humid conditions where you are you might be able to get away using it better
    than I can with so low humidity (moisture in the air) here. We are not in an area that gets
    marine air during the summer months either. You are hot and moist but we are hot and
    dry and I am afraid that the Pro-tekt would cause me more grief in the long run than I
    already have to endure. It will not matter to me what any of the experts can tell me about
    that protective chemical as Silicon on a plants leaf to me is just asking for trouble for us
    here. Silicon can act as a protectant but it also hinders.
     
  5. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    After taking a break to realize what I might have done it is best
    for me to now make this disclaimer.

    In regards to Pro-tekt, I am not dissuading any of you from using this
    product and I am also not encouraging any of you to go out and buy this
    product. I will state that if you have a general interest in the product
    please do your homework and write and ask questions in regards to how
    this product might be of service to you depending on the plant or plants
    you may want to use this product on, allowing for and taking into
    consideration your climatic conditions and/or usage under controlled
    situations.

    If the manufacturers want an apology from me then I will apologize for
    what I wrote in the previous note. That should absolve UBC of any possible
    wrongdoing should the manufacturers of Pro-tekt want to make an issue of my
    own person and generalized comments.

    I am sorry for any and all of the information I wrote in regards to Pro-tekt.

    Sincerely,

    James R. Stinson Ph.D.

    I have been online since Febraury 1995 and I still have not learned
    when to write just yes or no to an answer. In regards to products or
    manufacturers thereof, I will no longer answer such questions online.
     
  6. scamp

    scamp Member

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    UK
    Quick coloration

    I have just purchased a Japanese Acer Maple from my local garden center a few weeks ago.

    It currently sits in full sun, and gets partial sun / shade in the evenings in mid spring. However, the leaves quickly went from their original green color to a reddish brown and finally they seem to be on the throes of death. They are now all dry and shrivelled.

    My soil is normal garden soil and drainage is quite good and our UK climiate is, well you know, unpredictable. When the leaves drop off I beleive they will start to bud again, but does that means I won't see their true colors in the fall / autumn.

    Many Thanks
    Mike
     
  7. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Middle Georgia
    Pro-Tekt

    Mr. Shep sounds a little "gun-shy". Must have been burnt one to many times.
     
  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Hello AcerBob:

    I would not say I am gun shy. The misses tells me all the time
    that I am a bona fide sh_t disturber online. It just seems that
    the negative aspects of a problem find their way to me some
    times and I just throw my hands in the air and say, "I was not
    trying to cause any trouble". All I did was offer an honest
    opinion, one that should not be subject to consternation but
    when money is on the line people tend to not want to deal
    with realism. The only bottom line realism that counts is how
    much money is involved in a particular outcome one way or
    the other.

    We are not exempt online in offering our opinions as those
    opinions can come back to haunt us on occasion. I've had it
    happen but when I know I am right I will I stand up against
    anyone and in some elements in my past, everyone. The
    dilemma I have is that when I offer my own opinion in regards
    to a product what I write can be taken in two completely different
    contexts. One, that it is just me that says that I have no particular
    use for the product as it has no real application to me. The other
    is that someone may construe that I, as representing another entity,
    am saying that the product in question has no practical application
    to Agriculture or to Horticulture and it is then is when I can get
    myself into a little trouble.

    The one area that even after all of my posts in the Maple Forum
    that apparently no one has fully realized is that what may work
    for me may not work for others and vice versa. As far as any
    particular product, I can give my opinion as to why I will not use
    it but it has to be expounded upon that I am not saying that others
    should not use that product as there may be a particular and valid
    reason for using that said product where others are located. It
    hardly makes me gun shy when I was the only person to stick his
    neck out and I am the one with absolutely nothing to gain from it,
    just like my being in this Maple Forum.
     
  9. 2trees

    2trees Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    "I was not trying to cause any trouble". All I did was offer an honest
    opinion,

    That's good enough for me, I appreciate your comments. Isn't that how we all learn.


    Ron
     
  10. graftedmaplecollector

    graftedmaplecollector Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    louisiana
    I gotta agree with Mr shep on this one if a tree cant live in a container or the ground without man made chemicals to sustain it...it just dont belong there.
    If you really care about these trees we should be going through normal evolutionary processes (live and die) to produce hardier specimens and versions for the future. Babying a weak species rather than working to
    produce a hardier version of it will only lead to its ultimate extinction.
    What happens years from now if various products are outlawed for one reason
    or another(groundwater concerns etc). Not to say it doesnt have a place,
    I just worry overdependance on it might produce a wicked backlash on
    our beloved maples. Ultimately it is up to the consumer to make that
    choice, which they will anyway no matter what someones opinion may be.

    DISCLAIMER: I graftedmaplecollecter am 100% insane and
    any opinion is to be considered at your own risk.
     
  11. Acer palmatum 'Crazy'

    Acer palmatum 'Crazy' Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hoschton, Ga Z7
    I value the information gained from this forum and would hope that information not be held back. As long as information is not written in a malicious manner, which i think Mr.Shep's repsonse was definitely not, i think it should be allowed.

    We should take respoonses as they come, try to understand the information, and apply them to our particular location, trees, etc. If anyone/vendor has a problem with a response, they should reply. Information about there product, would have gone along way towards promoting them.

    It is about learning, just like Mr.Sheps planting trees in the wrong locations. I now have over 50 1-2 year grafts in containers. I struggle daily watering, moving, etc. I learn everyday, and hope to learn every year. And value greatly others advice and information!
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Impasse

    The problem I have in this Maple forum is that I sense
    an enthusiasm to have Maples but only a very select
    few people really know what they have.

    The problem of chasing names in Maples really became
    an issue in the nursery industry back in the late 70's
    and became a nuisance in the early 80's and started to
    become out of control back in the middle to late 80's.
    In the 90's misnamed varieties of Japanese Maples
    were all over the place, including in some of the leading
    wholesale nurseries in Oregon, California and Washington.

    Now, there have been instances in this forum whereby
    someone will show their very nice Maple under the guise
    as being a named variety and it is not that variety at all.
    Then to compound the problem that person will state which
    nursery they bought it from and the plant was misnamed
    by that nursery also. The quandary that I have is, was the
    plant misnamed on purpose, was the plants tag improperly
    placed on the Maple, was it an error of oversight or was the
    Maple misnamed because the nursery did not know enough
    about the Maple they were growing or one that they bought
    from a wholesale nursery, to know that particular variety?

    I've seen Maples misnamed on purpose as it is easier to
    sell an Oridono nishiki to a collector that does not already
    have one. What happens when the Maple is neither a
    Oridono nishiki, nor an Orido nishiki? How many people
    are there out there in the world that know the difference
    in how to tell closely related Maples apart? Very little
    time and effort has been spent on trying to differentiate
    which Maple is which and now the problem of misnaming
    Maples is too widespread in the nursery trade to do much
    of anything about it other than get ones self in a little
    trouble. What gripes me is that people have been in the
    positions of setting various Maple identification issues to
    rest but they have not done it, nor have they even tried to
    help the situation in many cases.

    I always have called a spade a spade and when asked
    I would offer my opinion on what the Maple is, even
    when knowing the nursery man or women did not
    want to hear what I had to say. In this forum I have
    to keep my mouth shut for identification purposes.
    I've seen various forms of Maples called a variety
    when I know they were nothing more than grafted
    seedlings at one time. I have to back off, change
    my position and say okay, I have no right to interfere
    with a Maple that someone else is happy with, all
    the while sustaining a deep repulsion that this kind
    of stuff will continue on no matter what I think or
    what I can or will do about it. The desire of others to
    name a Maple something that it isn't galls me to no
    end as I have not encountered enough current day
    people that are strong enough in their knowledge of
    Maples to know how to determine what a particular
    Maple is or may be. The comment the misses made
    last evening in our discussion on Dogwoods is so
    true, that the label does not lie and that people are
    buying the name on the label rather than associating
    the differences in the plant itself in comparison to the
    plants they already have and not taking into consideration
    what was written in the plant books to formulate an
    opinion prior to the plant being purchased. I've been
    told more than once that certain Arboretums are not
    wrong but I've proven them wrong before, even when
    it meant taking on the educators of the particular
    University that housed the Arboretum. I've seen
    Professors come into a nursery, give an at length
    oratory on a particular plant, while standing less
    than 3 feet away from the plant and then ask us, do
    you have that plant in the nursery? It is not any fun,
    nor is it in any way enjoyable to tell that person, look
    3 feet to your left. "What is that plant? That is the
    plant you just gave us a 30 minute treatise on! It
    happens more than I care to want to mention that
    people may know the inner dynamics of a particular
    plant, may know most all of the technical information
    but could not identify the plant, nor grow that plant if
    their life depended on it.

    Mr. AcerBob was only having some fun, there was
    no real intention of his to poke fun at me and I acted
    as such in my response. Ive been in a much less
    favorable position before when a person in a 3D
    graphics forum had made some real, venomous,
    below board fun of three other people and I put a
    stop to it. Even giving the warring party the best
    possible ammunition to use against me in a courtroom
    and I purposely did it in an open forum for all to see.

    As long as we do not direct our wrath towards someone
    in particular we should be fine as going after someone
    has no place in an open forum. Ive been there and
    done that, I know all about it!

    In one of my professional duties I cannot vilify a product,
    nor can I openly endorse that product. I can as an individual
    but I generally will not do it. It used to be with computer
    software we had beta testers that would use that program
    just to see what bugs may have been written into the code.
    Now, we have dollars and time determining that when a
    program seems ready for release it will be, even when the
    parent company knows full well there are issues that they
    will have to offer patches and in some cases upgrades for
    that could have been minimized the good old fashioned
    way by using beta testers.

    Thank you 2trees, graftedmaplecollector and Crazy for
    your comments. Poof I am out of here for while.

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
  13. AcerBob

    AcerBob Member

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Middle Georgia
    Yep. I am glad that Mr.Shep took my comment the way it was intended. Just having a little fun, not trying to "stir the pot", or cause any trouble. The reason I come to this forum is to learn, plain and simple. I know that experience is more practical than book-learning in a lot of cases. I am a practicing Veterinarian. I have learned more from practicing medicine than I ever did in school. Time and experience give a wealth of information. So I look at the few books out there about Japanese Maples and understand that this information is going to differ from place to place, due to a number of variables. But the books do give a basis on which to build. I am sorry that people in Mr. Sheps position can not give their opinions without disclaimers. I like to get a lot of different views and opinions and then make my own decision as how to proceed. If I make a mistake, Oh well, I will know better next time.
    I have 14 Maples planted in the ground. All are in part sun, on the west side of my house, with a steady breeze most of the time, in zone 8. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but I am willing to give it a try. I also know that I am going to lose some trees. But, I am not going to coddle them, either they make it or they dont. This way I will know what works best for me in my "neck of the woods".
    I do value peoples opinions and ideas. Please do not disappear on us and leave us hanging.

    Thx Bob
     
  14. graftedmaplecollector

    graftedmaplecollector Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    louisiana
    beta tester...i used to do that! :)
     
  15. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    San Joaquin Valley, California
    Hi AcerBob:

    I've been a maverick too long in plant related areas to change my spots
    much. I have some legitimate gripes with some of the people dealing
    with Japanese Maples as well as areas that I feel have been problematic
    for a long time. One thing I will not tolerate is people taking credit for
    what others have done before them. In a lot of ways the people in this
    Maple forum are quite lucky to not have known or experienced definite
    oversights of the past. It is tough for me to just say forget the past and
    deal with the present when I know things are not quite right. Do I take
    it upon myself and set the record straight feeling that only a handful of
    people really care to know or do I just turn the other cheek like so many
    people have and be just like them? I do not want to be just like them as
    I have more responsibilities to uphold to others than they have.

    Disclaimers are not my idea of a good time. I reacted to the initial
    question without thinking of a possible conflict of interest. I cannot
    go into detail as to who that conflict may apprise but I did express my
    cannot win position on the matter. I agree it should not be that way
    at all but I do not make up the rules.

    As 2trees correctly pointed out the whole purpose is to learn more.
    I learned Maples from others when my interest in plants at that time
    were principally Agronomic but I already had a Sasanqua Camellia
    collection as well as a strong interest in Conifers, mainly Pines. When
    I first met Don Kleim I already had over 50 species and varieties of
    Pines alone. After asking who in Oregon I had been in contact with,
    we shared notes and some people that I got along great with were some
    people that Don did not have such a good rapport with. Then again there
    were some that we both got along with well. When it became clear who
    Don felt needed some of his plants and whose plants Don wanted I then
    became the go between. I was the guy that delivered the plants to various
    nurseries in Oregon while bringing in plants from those same and other
    nurseries to Don. I was quite happy as that was the first time I was able
    to buy plants at wholesale prices and I let myself have some serious fun
    with that arrangement as a result.

    Don't worry about a thing. People can still contact me away from this
    forum, even when I am in a funk at times about Maples. Sometimes, it
    is just talking about Maples that gets me back on track. Other times I
    simply let certain issues past and present bother me way too much. I
    am a Pisces, need I say more!

    Best regards,

    Jim
     

Share This Page