What are these from?

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by curiousbiologist, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. curiousbiologist

    curiousbiologist Member

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ohio
    Hi,
    I was in Gutherie, Oklahoma over the holiday and found these odd looking plants. The plants bearing these fruits (?) appeared to be growing in small, distantly spaced patches among buffalo grass, scrub oaks and junipers (and other grasses I couldn't identify). Unfortunately I couldn't find any leaves from the plant. But the stem was woody and had thorns. I'd love to know what the plant might be!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Weekend Gardener

    Weekend Gardener Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Coquitlam, BC
    Solanum xanthocarpum may be?
     
  3. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    21,370
    Likes Received:
    834
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Probably a crabapple or hawthorn. Check books/sites on plants native to area.
     
  4. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,607
    Likes Received:
    644
    Location:
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Agree with Ron B. Probably Malus ioensis, but comparative fruit photographs aren't easy to find online. If not, here's a list of the hawthorn species of Oklahoma: Crataegus of Oklahoma
     
  5. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,509
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    I'd agree with Weekend Gardener, something Solanaceae, or if not that, then maybe some sort of Cucurbitaceae (it's hard to judge the size of them!).

    The stems and fruit attachment to them are wrong for Malus and Crataegus.
     
  6. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    21,370
    Likes Received:
    834
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    I wasn't sure about fruit attachment. However, to be a nightshade in this instance it has to be one with thorny, woody stems.
     
  7. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Paragon of Plants UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    10,607
    Likes Received:
    644
    Location:
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Yep, I'm baffled, then. I had a look re: stems and fruit attachment, and you're right Michael.

    curiousbiologist - could you post a bit more about the fruit? Hard / soft / juicy / dry? Bisect it and take a picture?
     
  8. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,509
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    How about Solanum carolinense with the calyces worn off? That would fit with Ron's point about thorns.
     
  9. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    21,370
    Likes Received:
    834
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Enlarge the photo and you can see the calyces are still present.
     
  10. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,509
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
    Yes, but they're flat disc, without the tomato-like 5 spreading calyx lobes that S. carolinense has on the photos I looked at - that's why I'm still a little uncertain about calling it a Solanum
     
  11. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

    Messages:
    21,370
    Likes Received:
    834
    Location:
    WA USA (Z8)
    Erect calyx lobes are visible at the base of the pedicel. Anyway, looking at a regional guide should put an end to this, unless these are a weedy plant that was left out.
     
  12. wrygrass2

    wrygrass2 Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA, USA
    Pretty far west for it, but possibly Solanum viarum? Evidently there were some found in PA and OK isnt that far away. See http://www.ento.vt.edu/Facilities/OnCampus/IDLab/NewPests/TSA/Immaturetsafruit.fl.jpeg for a picture of mature and immature fruit and http://www.ento.vt.edu/Facilities/OnCampus/IDLab/NewPests/TSA/tsa_photos.htm for the parent page. It presumes of course that the calyces are warn off or at least not plainly visible. You can just make out some thorns on the branches extending to the left from the leftmost fruit. My guess is probably wrong as to species, Solanum carolinense is probably the one, as the pictures of S. viarum show the fruit arising singly, one at each leaf axil, but I thought I'd throw it into the mix.

    Harry
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2005
  13. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,509
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
  14. wrygrass2

    wrygrass2 Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA, USA
    Hi Michael,

    Curiousbiologist said that he/she picked up the plant in Guthrie, Oklahoma, but S. viarum is not reported there either. As I said before your answer of Horsenettle or Solanum carolinense was most apt to be the one. I only put out S. viarum as it is so invasive by all accounts, it would be nice to rule it out, just in case. Especially since OK is more apt to be a good climate for it to grow in than in Ohio.

    Also I thought I could make out a bit of speckling on the fruit pictured to the extreme right, but that might just be due to age rather than the actual coloration. There might be some speckling in S. carolinense but was unable to find good pictures of its fruit on the web. The paper from purdue at http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/tsa/tsa2004-fs.pdf states that the fruit sizes of S. carolinense is 1/2" or 1.25 cm while that of S. viarum is 1" or 2.54 cm. The quarter(diameter=1"/2.54cm) in the picture almost assuredly makes it larger than 1/2" or 1.25cm. But the above page also states that the fruit in S. viarum is mostly solitary while this picture is definitely of a cluster. It is hard to tell without the leaves on the branch whether it is truly a cluster or just a series of fruit born along the branch. In any case, it would be nice to hear back from curiousbiologist to find out more about the fruit he pictured.

    Given all the above, my guess would still be the same as yours for now. Solanium carolinense with an unusually large fruit. That is until more information is posted or until perhaps a third species that fits the fruit and location, which well could be but I would think unlikely.

    Harry
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2005
  15. wrygrass2

    wrygrass2 Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA, USA
    Of course the final possibility is that he found a volunteer tomato plant amongst some S. carolinense. :)

    Also in the previous post I thought the coin was a quarter, but it might be a nickel (7/8" or 2.2 cm) or a dime( .75" or 1.9cm) In any event, they all are larger than .5".

    Harry
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2005
  16. Eric La Fountaine

    Eric La Fountaine Contributor Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    235
    Location:
    sw USA
    That is definately a US quarter, heads up - about an inch or 2.5 cm across.
     
  17. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,509
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
  18. hamadryad

    hamadryad Active Member

    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Morrison, CO, USA
    Very interesting... Have you ruled out Solanum elaeagnifolium, whose fruits are to 15 mm in diameter and, per Great Plains Flora, "yellowish or reddish, eventually nearly black"-- perhaps these are immature. S. elae is a weedy adventive.

    Also, same ref has fruits of S. carolinense up to 2 cm. And "infl... elongating at maturity to form a rather tight racemiform cluster", which doesn't quite seem to fit this.

    We have S. rostratum here, it's annual and I've never seen such fruits on it.

    Nice puzzle...
     
  19. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

    Messages:
    11,509
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Britain zone 8/9
  20. wrygrass2

    wrygrass2 Active Member 10 Years

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA, USA
    In reading through this thread for the upteenth time I finally looked up Solanum xanthocarpum, the answer suggested by the Weekend Gardener (the first reply I might add) at the beginning of the thread, and it seems to fit the plant. The fruit are 3 to 4 cm. The fruit along with the calyces, has a circular attachment. The stems are armed or have thorns. Its a plant used in Indian (Asia) and Southeast Asian herbal medicine so well could have been planted and escaped. Althought the Australian page had the fruit color as green, those shown from India and Thailand are yellow, with specific varieties named. Not listed in the USDA but I have come across other plants that weren't supposed to be here, at least in WA, according to USDA.

    Sometimes it takes a bit to see what's in front of your nose. My apologies to Weekend Gardener.

    Harry
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2005

Share This Page