Viable Acer griseum (Paperbark Maple) seeds?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Maiden, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    When I have so many seeds, Istratify half of them in the fridge, and put the other half in pots, outside.
     
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  2. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Certainly worth hedging your bets so to speak, Alain.
     
  3. RookiePresent

    RookiePresent New Member

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    Hello, I am also trying to get some paperbark maple seeds to germinate, and have been following guidelines from a seed seller online. You say A. griseum needs a cold/warm/cold stratification period to germinate, but this resource I've been following suggests the inverse, by starting with 17 weeks warm stratification (of which I am 2-3 weeks into myself), then 17 weeks cold, then moving the seeds outside to warm again naturally as spring comes in. I only have 32 seeds so I'm trying to be very careful to get the best chances of success here, and this conflicting information concerns me that I'm doing something wrong and setting myself up to fail. Here is the resource I've been using: Paperbark Maple (acer griseum)
     
  4. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I've never heard of that, but who knows. It certainly doesn't mimic nature, as the seed ripens before a cold period. Dirr says (essentially) plant in fall and wait two years. That is, cold/warm/cold. So that's the natural method. Dirr also says he has cold stratified for 90 days, then split the pericarps by hand to extract the embryos, and had good success planting them directly. YMMV
     
  5. RookiePresent

    RookiePresent New Member

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    What do you suggest I do? Or, if you were me, what would you do? I'm very new to all of this, and have heard about the embryo extraction method and how he has had success with it. I don't want to wait 2 years for a small chance of germination since I have so few seeds, so I did want to try this method. I'm thinking I let the seeds sit in warm, until I can cold stratify for 90 days that will put me close to spring, and then attempt the embryo extraction. I don't think that mixing methods of warm/cold should matter to much, as long as the seeds stay moist.
     
  6. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I don't imagine leaving them out for a couple months in the warm would hurt. And, if you don't want to wait, you could try to extract the embryos, I know this has worked for a few people, though I haven't tried it. I believe it's difficult to get them out without damage. Anyway that's what I'd probably try if I didn't want to wait the 2 years. Just make sure the seeds don't get too wet.

    Do your guys make some claim about the seed viability? I guess this way you'll see if the sold you a bunch of empty fruit!
     
  7. RookiePresent

    RookiePresent New Member

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    I didn't buy the seeds from this specific retailer, I picked them up off the ground of a tree that I found, but I did notice that every Acer species seed page on that site seems to have the same recipe that starts with the same "Paperbark Maple seeds of this species have a deep dormancy within them..." so it could just be a copy and paste.

    I found another website that says more or less the same thing, "Stratification Requirement: Hot water treat the seed then 60-90 days warm stratification followed by 90-120 days cold stratification." Paperbark Maple Tree Seeds
    They give a germination range of 30%-50%, which I feel is quite generous. It's interesting (and frustrating) that information is all over the place, but I think I'll start their 90 cold stratification this weekend, attempt some embryo extraction, and hopefully have some little griseum sprouts to take care of come spring.
     
  8. RookiePresent

    RookiePresent New Member

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  9. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Maybe. If you just picked up the seed off the ground, there's a high probability it's entirely parthenocarpic. Before beginning such a long process, do a cut test on some to see if there are any viable at all.

    I just looked at semencedupuy, which gives pretty good advice generally, they say soak and 6m cold minimum. They claim 30% success in the lab.

    All I can say is that AFAIK cold/warm/cold is the reference, but that's book and second hand knowledge. Although Dirr is a pretty strong reference!

    Good luck.
     
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  10. RookiePresent

    RookiePresent New Member

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    Why would picked up seed be inherently parthenocarpic? I don't understand, because viable seeds end up on the ground too?
     
  11. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Well-Known Member

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    I agree with @emery, DO CUT SOME to verify that there are viable embryos.

    I have a lonely paperbark in my landscape ('lonely', meaning that there is not another within a quarter of a mile distance). It flowers and produces seed prolifically. Not a one is viable. I just hold the wing of the samara and cut though the seed with a pruning scissor or secateur. All of mine are hollow. A viable seed will be solid - the shell is filled by the embryo. I suggest that you keep cutting seeds until you find a solid one. An estimate of your chances of viable seeds in what you have left is 1 over the count of empties you found. Multiply by the probability of germination (less than 100%) and you've got some idea of the chances you'll get seedlings from those seeds you found.

    Deno, Seed Germination Theory and Practice, states that griseum have a hard, impervious seed coat that is more easily removed after being held moist for 3 months at 40F. Then one extracts and plants the embryo, pretty much as @emery has advised you. Deno also says that 60% of his seeds were just empty shells.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  12. RookiePresent

    RookiePresent New Member

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    I cut some open, and some turned into all because they were all empty! Thank you guys for the advice, I saved me a lot of wasted time and I decided to buy some seeds from a retailer. You mention the book by Dirr, is that the Manual of Woody Landscape Plants - Michael A. Dirr book? I've heard a lot of people talk about Dirr and how his work is basically the propagation bible.
     
  13. Maiden

    Maiden Member

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    I came here to learn as well so I'm no expert but I too believe copying nature has to be the best way. Collect seeds in the Fall and cold stratify for 4 or 5 months as would happen in winter right? Warm 'em all season then back to cold again, that next Spring plant 'em.
    One thing I learned is that a lot of seeds on the ground may not be Paperbarks at all.
    My paperbark mother tree (in Southern Ontario) is just now getting ready to drop her Fall samaras. I picked a huge pile right from the tree.
    Last year I broke open a ton of them and most had an embroy which is wonderful. I think this tree is a winner of viable seeds.
    I'm going back to the house Saturday and will try to reach more.
    Not sure if it's allowed on this forum but I'd be happy to send you an envelope full in the mail if you're in Canada.
    R.
     
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  14. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Dirr & Heuser, "Ref Manual of Woody Plant Propagation."

    If it weren't allowed, a lot of us would be in a lot of trouble, haha! -E
     
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  15. kbguess

    kbguess Active Member 10 Years

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    I have ordered some seedling A griseum that will arrive in the spring. I would be happy to send a couple to you @RookiePresent if you are located in United States
     
  16. RookiePresent

    RookiePresent New Member

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    I live in the States, but thank you nonetheless for the offer, that's really nice of you!
     
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  17. Maiden

    Maiden Member

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    Lol Got it.
     
  18. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Rising Contributor

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    I picked a good few handfuls of A.Griseum and following your advice I’ve just cut the seed pods of several in half and they were empty shells..I am such a rookie I didn’t realise this was a phenomenon, I shall do some more tomorrow and see if any have embryos.

    Is this a common phenomenon to Palmatum and Japonicum Japanese Maples too?
     
  19. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    My observation is that when viable seed of this species is found it tends to be where more than one source tree is present. As though the prevalence of blanks is due at least in part to lack of cross pollination. With it being - before the trade was eventually able to produce numbers of this species - the case that solitary specimens were what was usually encountered in plantings.
     
  20. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    Good morning R, I have found that palmatum and japonicum seeds tend to be around 50% viable, but Griseum only around 5% at best, this is why this beutiful tree is becoming so rare. That was interesting from RonB, the trouble is I have very rarely seen two planted together, as they tend to be planted as a specimen tree. Hopefully you will find a few that are viable. Then you have the tricky task in the propagation and keeping them alive past 3 years. A wonderful tree but not easy. Good luck.
     
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  21. dicky5ash

    dicky5ash Rising Contributor

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    Thanks D. worth a go..I’ll continue checking these pods for embryo’s am going to give more attention to seedlings this year.. I have a green house to put up in the coming weeks
     
  22. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

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    A greenhouse, that sounds exciting R. So much more you will be able to do.
     
  23. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Well done! We're looking to invest in a greenhouse also, may I ask from where you're getting yours, and what sort? Sorry about the thread drift...

    On subject, I seem to recall that there's an A. griseum which has a large percentage of viable seed. I don't know where it originated, but I think that Esveld has one, and it has been shared around with various producers in Oregon. I don't think it has been named.
     
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  24. AlainK

    AlainK Generous Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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  25. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    No, I actually grow that one here. In fact we were just wondering if it's the same as 'Purple Haze', which Buchholtz introduced; they don't know at Esveld. I think it seems likely though, given that they acquired the plant from B. originally.

    Not talking about one of the hybrids (or supposed hybrids, de Jong thinks the one Esveld sells is just an unusual sycamore), but an actual A. griseum.
     

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