Viable Acer griseum (Paperbark Maple) seeds?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Maiden, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    To start, I know paperbarks are difficult to propogate, that you'll only get a 5 to 10% germination rate from seeds. I've also read that most samaras will be empty if you crack them open hence the difficulty.

    So I have a question about the samaras I picked from my tree. I have a very large bag I'd put in the freezer. I thawed them yestereday and this morning cracked open 5 or 6. Had they all been empty or dried up and shrivelled I was going to toss the bag.

    Well, none were empty, 4 of them had bad seeds but two were plump and green inside. I don't know, am I defying the odds or is it the green, plump seeds that actually get the 5 - 10% germination rate?
    Here's my picture. You can see a couple of the dried up tiny seeds and the two beautiful green ones in the pod and some of their pieces on the tissue.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    117
    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    The ones you've found that are solid and green inside are indeed "the 5 - 10% germination rate". Maples produce samaras even if the flower wasn't pollinated. Only those that were pollinated have an embryo inside. Otherwise the seeds are hollow.
     
    Maiden likes this.
  3. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    Interesting. So the dried up ones were pollinated then died. that's an amazing pollination rate if none were empty.
    Still, I'm thinking I have a good chance of getting a few to germinate then if 2 out of 6 were green. (alive) I'll give it a whirl.

    So soak them in warm water for 24 hours is the suggestion, before putting into peats, is that correct?
     
  4. 0soyoung

    0soyoung Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    117
    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    Yes, that is pretty much it, as far as I know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
    Maiden likes this.
  5. Partelow

    Partelow New Member

    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Cawston, BC
    I have tried for years to grow acre griseum from seed. I’ve shown hundreds at a time. Almoost no success. But one year a huge number came up within several feet of the parent tree. Which I transplanted and they grew well. I’ve opened Many seeds and found what I believed were healthy embryos. But no germination. I now have several adult griseums and hope that pollination is more successful. By the way, I have read somewhere that griseum will hybridized with acer negundo. The seeds from that union will germinate freely.
     
    Maiden likes this.
  6. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    Thanks, all I can do is try. I'll nick them too after I soak them too. I'm selling this place so I won't own my gorgeous mother tree and so won't be able to save any seedlings that should come up from here on in.
    I have one, after all this time. I'm hoping it'll survive to be planted on my new property.
     
  7. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    5,638
    Likes Received:
    3,394
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    First of all good luck with your move. Secondly I think you already have a growing Griseum seedling and how things work out you will probably end up with a dozen more.Lol
    Btw at this time of year it doesn't need to be warm water soaking. I use warm water after stratification in 'very' early Spring.

    D
     
    Maiden likes this.
  8. LoverOfMaples

    LoverOfMaples Rising Contributor

    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    521
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    This is one I find very hard to germinate. I've been trying for years with very little to no success. Last year I had 2 out of 1000. Im still waiting on this year's (2019 seeds) but I don't think I will have any luck once again. I shall keep trying. Good luck @Maiden
     
    Maiden likes this.
  9. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    5,638
    Likes Received:
    3,394
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Good evening D, couldn't agree more, that's why I bought a Griseum two years ago, but now it looks like this has just died on me. A beautiful tree but so difficult to propagate and get past 5 years of age, as Emery and Alain have said. I really do wish @Maiden every success.

    D

    D
     
    Maiden and LoverOfMaples like this.
  10. LoverOfMaples

    LoverOfMaples Rising Contributor

    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    521
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Hey D. Do you what rootstock is used for grafting or can it be grafted?
     
  11. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    5,638
    Likes Received:
    3,394
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Hi D, I have never tried, but am aware that A saccharum is possibly a compatible rootstock. There is no doubt this is a difficult tree to grow and especially from seed.
    I am at this time wondering whether to have another go, but if I do, it will be a 10 year tree.
    D
     
    LoverOfMaples likes this.
  12. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    2 our of 1,000! Not a good sign but I'm going to give it a go.
     
  13. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    Well I hope I get a dozen! I guess soaking won't hurt them, going to peat pot them this evening. What the heck.
     
    LoverOfMaples likes this.
  14. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    5,638
    Likes Received:
    3,394
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    @Maiden , If you don't try you don't get success. 'Good luck'. Please keep the thread updated on how you get on.
    D
     
    Maiden and LoverOfMaples like this.
  15. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,379
    Likes Received:
    918
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Couple of things.

    Acer griseum needs to be double stratified 3/6/3 (cold/warm/cold) in order to germinate. Even then, the pericarps (seed shells) are so hard that viable germinating embryos have a hard time getting out. So there are two possible methods: the traditional, to scarify the nutlet before the first stratification and hope it doesn't rot; or a modern method of "c-section", which is to wait until the seed should be germinating, then use tweezers and razor blades to carefully open the nutlet and extract the embryo, which can then grow. Stratification should be either outside in ground, or in half/half peat/sharp sand. Peat by itself will either stay too wet and rot the seed or dry out completely.

    You can guess from my description, that if the % of viable seed is low, the success rate will be even lower.

    So @Maiden I wish you the best of luck, sorry to hear you are moving away from this nice tree. You'll understand why I suggested that letting it germinate naturally in the ground was maybe the easiest approach. However, you may be able to buy more viable seed, or a young seedling for not too much, and here's the thing: a study from U. Penn a few years ago showed that the genetic diversity among garden grown Paperbarks is essentially nil. They're all the same tree genetically, because they are all related to the same trees that Earnest Wilson brought from China in the beginning of the 20th century. While this is bad news for the species it's good news for you, anything you grow or buy will be pretty much identical to what you had. Unfortunately, there are only 4 sites in the wild where a few A. griseum still grow, it's critically endangered. The species seems very stable, there are some differences in when individuals start to peel.

    Although Dirr et al propose grafting on saccharum, I have never run across this in the trade, and I wonder if it is done by anyone now that we have decent sources for seed and an understanding of how to germinate. I believe that the few cultivars and hybrids (Cinnamon Flake, x waxmanii, etc) are being grafted on griseum understock.

    The hybrids seem to be intersectional and further within the series Grisea (Section Trifolata, Series Grisea), meaning triflorum or maximowiczianum. To my eye some of the selections look like hybrids. That said, I've not heard of any hybridization with Section Negundo, and the sections are not closely related genetically. So if there's any reference in the literature I'd be very interested in being pointed towards it, TIA.

    Good luck! -E
     
    AlainK likes this.
  16. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    Good luck! -E[/QUOTE]

    Yup, I've read all about Wilson and his trip to China. I wondered if by now, more had been brought over. I have a feeling putting the seeds in the ground for natural stratification is the best route but I'd be 80 years old before anything that germinated would get to my height. ;)
    At least I know where this tree is, I'll come back later and grab more seeds. :D (and probably end up buying a couple at a nursery)
    Thanks for all your input I appreciate the time you put into it. Fingers crossed.
     
  17. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    Hopes shines eternal.
    My paperbark baby was looking pretty ill and I was convinced this was the end. Well, this morning look what I see. New leaves! Its alive!
    (the rocks keep the squirrels from digging him up!)
     

    Attached Files:

    AlainK likes this.
  18. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    5,638
    Likes Received:
    3,394
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    Good news indeed @Maiden. The leaves do look healthy. Fingers crossed for you.
     
    Maiden likes this.
  19. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,379
    Likes Received:
    918
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    I agree, I think it looks great. And a little hairy, even!

    I was next to a young one, from wild Chinese seed, planted in 2017 but germinated in 2011, and I thought you might like to see what size it makes in about 10 years from seed. It's just starting to have the flaking bark.

    It's in full sun all day, pretty dry spot. The fencing is one meter high. (Sorry about the focus on the last shot).

    IMG_20200629_182814_1.jpg IMG_20200629_182837_1.jpg IMG_20200629_182914_1.jpg
     
    AlainK and Maiden like this.
  20. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    10 years. Oh dear I'll be ancient by that time. LOL He's beautiful though. Nice and bushy and look at that bark!

    I think I'm going to put the whole terra cotta pot into the ground and let him grow a couple of years before I attempt to transplant him directly into the ground. Its a pretty big pot, what do you think?
     

    Attached Files:

  21. emery

    emery Generous Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    2,379
    Likes Received:
    918
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    LOL indeed, haha. I don't expect to see it very big! Luckily we have another I bought at a reasonable size in a garden center. I should say our soil is very acidic so things grow really slowly. I think the pH around there is about 4.9.

    I think it's a good idea to grow any maple to a decent sized root system and caliper before planting. They have a really hard time going in without some decent reserves to draw on the first couple of years.

    On the other hand, I don't like putting small roots in a big pot, because the moisture tends to stagnate where the roots aren't, causing oxygenation problems eventually. I've had many maples (including a griseum cultivar 'Golden Lucky') which I've downsized the pot because the roots weren't growing very well. So I do think the pot is way too big for the seedling, I'd have it in a 1/2 liter pot and then gradually pot up.

    I'd be worried about the air temperature in the Toronto area for a seedling that size, but if you get good snow cover it should probably survive outside. And of course burying the pot is always a decent plan to keep the roots from getting too cold, since even frozen you get the warmer mass to draw from.

    Personally I'd put it in a smaller pot and then an unheated garage-type area, if you have one, where it wouldn't go below -15C for the soil. I'm not enough of a cold-weather gardening expert to know whether you can achieve that buried outside. You might want to check out this link https://maplesociety.org/sites/defa...002-Native-and-exotic-maples-in-Poland-vf.pdf on the Maple Society Open Science page, it evaluates A. griseum in Poland as having suffered severe damage when temps dropped into the -25C area, even on mature wood.
     
    Maiden and LoverOfMaples like this.
  22. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    Look at Mr. Fuzzy here. I think I have 2!
     

    Attached Files:

    Acerholic likes this.
  23. Acerholic

    Acerholic Esteemed Contributor Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout Maple Society

    Messages:
    5,638
    Likes Received:
    3,394
    Location:
    Hampshire England Zone 8b UK
    That is great news @Maiden, as they are temperamental, two are better than one for survival odds.
     
    Maiden likes this.
  24. Maiden

    Maiden Member

    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Greater Toronto Area
    Hah! Exactly!
     
  25. LoverOfMaples

    LoverOfMaples Rising Contributor

    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    521
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    I had a few griseum seedlings a few years ago. I have lost the labels and they have been mixed in the random seedling section of my yard. Maybe they survive and show themselves as the years comes.
     
    Maiden likes this.

Share This Page