Unknown Variegate -- Help With ID?

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Idacer, Jun 19, 2006.

  1. Idacer

    Idacer Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southern Idaho
    I recently spotted this tree a few blocks from my brother-in-law's home along the Boise river. At first, I did not even suspect it as a maple as the color from street distance is almost white. I asked the owner, but she offered little information other than the fact that it was a "Japanese Maple".

    The tree appears to be about 20 feet tall, is quite twiggy, and is growing in a stiffly upright fashion. The predominant leaf coloration is a cream or very light green with irregular splashes of dark green on a few lobes here and there. Larger leaves seem to be about 3 cm wide and 3 cm long, but many of the leaves are much smaller than this. Leaf coverage can be quite dense at the tips of the brachlets. Leaf petioles are pale green and average about 1 cm in length. The few areas of reversion seem to be mostly on older wood at the bottom of the tree.

    I've personally not seen a tree like this before. Assuming that it is a named cultivar, does anyone have any ideas what it might be?

    Thanks,
    Bryan
     

    Attached Files:

  2. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Luxembourg
    Idacer -

    this is a fabulous tree. I am looking for a maple with more white myself, so I found Butterfly, Kocho nishiki, Kocho no mai - but this one seems too big for those? I hope someone knows the answer.

    Schusch
     
  3. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Southwest France
    I would say Butterfly. I have one in shade that shows similar behaviour with up to 3/4 of leaves creamy white.
    What baffles me, though, is that the tree seems to be in full sun.

    Gomero
     
  4. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,163
    Likes Received:
    2,629
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Could it be Asahi zuru?

    From the Vertrees 3rd ed: "The leaves vary considerably in markings on each plant. Some, especially the smaller leaves, are almost entirely white, while others are almost completely green with only one small patch of white. ..." He lists it to 8 m. The petioles seem short but perhaps this is just natural variation in an older plant, or maybe it's a seedling.

    A lovely tree indeed, whatever it is.

    -E
     
  5. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Luxembourg
    Hi, gomero-

    are you saying that Butterfly stays more white in shade, or that it burns in sun? Does it get as big as this one?

    Hi, emery-

    I have an Asahi zuru - it is much greener than this.

    Schusch
     
  6. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Southwest France
     
  7. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,163
    Likes Received:
    2,629
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Hi Schusch,

    Just a guess of course. I've only seen pretty small Asahi zuru, certainly never one anything like this size. Since you have one, maybe I can run a couple questions by you: is it quite hardy, as Harris implies? A good grower? How about sun?

    Funny, I wouldn't have guessed Butterfly for this one...

    -E
     
  8. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Southwest France
    Emery,
    I have one (Asahi zuru) in the ground which is about 2 m. high. It receives 2-3 hrs of full (Southern France) sun in the middle of the day and is in dappled shade the remainder of the day; it does not show any signs of leaf scorch. It is a strong and, in my case, a very healthy grower.
    As mentioned in another post in the forum, the initial growth is usually green; the variegation appearing in subsequent spurts.

    Gomero
     
  9. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Luxembourg
    Hi, Emery-

    I agree with Gomero. Mine is more than two meters, it is in a container, and less than 10 years old - it will get bigger. No problem in winter ( it has seen up to minus 8 or 10 C) , and mine sees sun from morning until 2 or 3 in the afternoon - no leaf burn. Plus it's in a windy place.

    Schusch
     
  10. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,163
    Likes Received:
    2,629
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Thanks Schusch and Gomero, I will definitely try and get Asahi zuru this autumn. Sounds like Mr. Harris is right about this one! Anything that can take that much sun, and wind, is a must have for me...

    -E
     
  11. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Luxembourg
    Emery-

    I hope you have an oridono nishiki, because you might like that even better. Asahi has a 'stricter' beauty, Oridono looks more playful, more pink/white. Oridono is said to be more fragile, but I haven't noticed yet (sun until 3 in the afternoon, wind).
    Or get both.

    If I can say something about Harris's book: for some reason the height he gives for the trees is pretty conservative, if compared to, for instance, Van Gelderen, and even to what I have seen until now. So beware if you plan ahead, and check the other books, if you can.
    Schusch
     
  12. Idacer

    Idacer Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southern Idaho
    Gomero,

    Thanks for the info. You should note that this tree is tucked into a north-facing alcove. The leaves within reach -- those below a 10-foot roof line -- are in full shade. Even so, I did not notice a difference in coloration in leaves above the roof-line where the tree has to deal with a considerable amount of full sun. I'll have to pay attention to the possibility of subtle differences in leaf coloration as I watch this tree in the future.

    I believe your identfication to be accurate based upon the 3rd edition description (not the picture). I've seen several A.P. 'Butterfly' specimens in our local nurseries and would have guessed that this tree carried such a name tag at one point in time whether it really was one, or not. They seem to be the most widely marketed variegate in this area. The fact that the Butterflies that I've seen in the nurseries didn't even come to mind when I first saw this tree is most likely a testiment to the effects of environment on individual specimen appearance. Maturity may have a significant impact, as well.

    At one point in time, I had thoughts of adding a Butterfly to my collection. Based on the size of this specimen, I'm not sure I have the real estate to pull it off.

    Thanks,
    Bryan
     
  13. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,163
    Likes Received:
    2,629
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Schusch,

    Thanks for the tip on Oridono. I've always thought it looks beautiful but was put off by the idea that it is susceptible to late frosts. Those are a fact of life as we are in one of the highest points of Normandie and surrounded by forests, so our micro-climate tends towards cold in spring and early summer. (On the other hand we gain a couple of degrees in late fall/early winter, so...) I might try it in a pot as these I can protect more.

    I have noticed the same thing about Mr. Harris' book compared to the others, about hight, but for Oridono he has 5 m and Vertrees 3rd, van Gelderen have 5-6 m. I have wondered if Mr. Harris is not calibrated to the UK where the cooler summers perhaps give less vigour?

    In any case Mr. Harris is a dedicated maple man as well as a first rate nurseryman, who has provided me with some first rate plants and even brought them over from the UK on his trips to France.

    -E
     
  14. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Luxembourg
    Emery-

    I haven't had to deal with late frosts yet, but I think if you have other maples, then Oridono shouldn't be a problem, either.

    Good to hear about Mr. Harris - does he have a website, where one could see his selection?

    All best,
    Schusch
     
  15. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    3,163
    Likes Received:
    2,629
    Location:
    Normandie, France
    Schusch,

    Mr. Harris is owner of Mallet Court, there is indeed a site, although there is a simple pdf to download for the catalogue.

    http://www.malletcourt.co.uk/

    His full contact info is listed in the appendix of "Maples of the World."

    As for the late frost issue, I think that fragile maples that leaf out very early are likely to be problematic here, at least in the ground. Anyway, I'll probably end up giving it a try, at least at some point! So many maples, so little time (and budget)...

    cheers,

    -E
     
  16. schusch

    schusch Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Luxembourg
    Thanks, emery, for the link.
     

Share This Page