Unknown tree/shrub from Japan

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Gomero, Apr 17, 2013.

  1. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    The unknown plant comes from central Japan. Leaves are opposite and decussate. Notice that the leaf base is incompatible with all known forms of Acer miyabei.

    Gomero
     

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  2. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    I was just going to suggest an Acer miyabei cultivar!

    Does it have milky sap or clear sap?
     
  3. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    No, the sap is definitely not milky.

    Gomero
     
  4. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    OK! So not Acer miyabei, then.
     
  5. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I knew it was not Acer miyabei, I have no idea what it is, that's why I posted here!!!
    What is it?, family? genus?

    Gomero
     
  6. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    It does look like a maple.
     
  7. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Yes, that's what I thought, but which species?
    Gomero
     
  8. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    Using the scientific WAG identification method, I see Acer buergerianum (or Acer buergerianum subsp.) influences in the overall leaf shape and the way it hangs from the stem. Maybe it's a cross between two species and the additional four points along with vein structure come from another species.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2013
  9. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    I agree JT1, but the leaf itself (upper and lower sides) is definitely not A. buergerianum. If a hybrid, indeed a unique one!!
    It looks like a maple, but is it a maple?, I am dying to see its flowers!!!

    Gomero
     
  10. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Veeery interesting. :) Does the provenance give any clues? I certainly do not recognize it at all. I wonder if, in spite of some evidence, it is not a maple after all.
     
  11. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    I guess it could be a variety of Abutilon pictum, only time will tell...
     
  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Sorry, nope, that has alternate leaves. This is definitely a maple.
     
  13. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  14. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I grow diabolicum here, I would definitely say it is not that.
     
  15. chimera

    chimera Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    There does seem to be some variability in the herbarium specimens shown from different areas. The seeds will be interesting.
     
  16. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    diabolicum does have 5 main veins though, although the texture of the leaf is pretty good for it. Seeds or flowers might give a clue to a hybrid. Diabolicum flowers appear with the leaves though, so if there is a relation you won't see the flowers this year.

    How about an inter-section diabolicum x buergerianum? :)
     
  17. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    The more I look at this, I feel it is one of the more exotic Acer buergerianum varieties. If you look at Acer buergerianum 'Hime kaede', for example; you see those additional 4 points (2 bottom and 2 off the center lobe). I am not saying it's 'Hime kaede', because the additional 4 points are longer and more pronounced on your tree. I am just saying that it further supports my belief that it's Acer buergerianum related.

    I find when you dive into the more exotic Acer buergerianum you find very striking similarities. Here is a picture of Acer buergerianum 'Hime kaede', look closely and you can see what I'm talking about. The vein structure is closely related too.


    http://www.esveld.nl/plantdias/27/27578.jpg

    The edge of the leaf has a slight roll to the edge like Acer buergerianum TANCHO
    http://acer-juhar.blogspot.com/2010/04/acer-buergerianum-tancho.html

    The lobes are long and narrow like Acer buergerianum MINO YATSUBUSA, just not quite that narrow.
    http://acer-juhar.blogspot.com/2010/04/acer-buergerianum-mino-yatsubusa.html
    or long like Acer buergerianum KYUDEN
    http://acer-juhar.blogspot.com/2010/04/acer-buergerianum-kyuden.html

    Anyone know of a Japanese website or grower that specializes in Acer buergerianum? Maybe a bonsai related site since they are so popular in bonsai culture. I think we may find our answer there...

    Here is a link that shows the diversity of this species:
    http://acer-juhar.blogspot.com/search?q=Acer+buergerianum
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  18. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Provenance is Japan. It grew from a tray with, in principle, only maple seeds collected there in 2008. However I cannot guarantee that some exogenous seed, either from Japan or, even, from my own garden in France, could have ended up there. You guys know I grow many, many maples with a large coverage of species and cultivars and I am darn not able to confirm that it is a maple.

    I grow two diabolicums and they leaf out quite differently from the mystery plant.

    Gomero
     
  19. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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  20. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    It wouldn't be that species.
     
  21. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Why not?

    Gomero
     
  22. JT1

    JT1 Contributor

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    It's my understanding those are "native to western North America, mostly near the Pacific coast, from southernmost Alaska to southern California. Some are also found inland in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains of central California, and a tiny population occurs in central Idaho." (wikipedia)

    "Bigleaf maple grows in mountainous regions [138]. It is widespread in the Coast Ranges, the Klamath-Siskiyou Mountains, and the foothills of the Cascade Range and the northern Sierra Nevada [75,81,99,102], obtaining best development in southern Oregon [13]. Some authors place bigleaf maple's distribution as far north as the Alaska panhandle [13,99,138]. Isolated bigleaf maple populations may occur in Idaho [102].

    States and provinces (as of 2011 [211]):
    United States: CA, OR, WA
    Canada: BC"

    (USDA) http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/acemac/all.html
     
  23. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    So assuming you grow macrophyllum it might have sneaked in? I certainly doubt a Lithocarpa/Pentaphylla hybrid.

    I can see a surface resemblance to macrophyllum, although it's missing the lower lobes altogether. But that plant has distinctive bud scales which grow long with the stem and are a sort of burgundy red. The stems are quite vigorous as well even on side growth. Since I don't see anything like that with your maple, macrophyllum seems like too much of a stretch for me (natural range not withstanding also).
     

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