Unidentified conifer in Jakarta

Discussion in 'Plants: Identification' started by srustan, Aug 25, 2004.

  1. srustan

    srustan Member

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    Hello everyone,

    I am a new member in this forum, I live in a suburb southwestern of Jakarta, Indonesia and I am just a beginner in growing conifers.

    While looking for new conifer trees for my collection I found this trees locally called Cemara Balon. But I can not identify its exact scientific name because its cones are really different with the conifer cones that I know. I have tried to look for it in my Manual of Cultivated Conifers by Gerd Krussmann with no avail. Its foliage looks similar with the foliage of some Chamaecyparis species but the form of the cones is really different.

    So I asked my daughter to take some detail digital photos of the tree and the leaves and the cones both unopened and empty ones so you can see it through this forum.

    I wonder if any of you can help me in identifying this trees.

    Thank you and regards,

    Subianto
     

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  2. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Hi Subianto:

    When I saw the shape of the tree I said to myself
    Beefwood. When I saw the cones I said Casuarina.
    Casuarina cristata in Australia is known as Belah.
    When I did a quick search on Cemara Belah I got
    this URL below.

    http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/Chudnoff/SEAsian_Oceanic/htmlDocs_seasian/Casuarina_spp.html

    I am at the wrong location to pin this one down
    for you, no books here and very slow internet
    access but I think this one is not a Conifer at all
    but is a species of Casuarina instead. Some people
    know some of the Casuarina's as being She-Oaks.
    You may want to check out Allocasuarina and perhaps
    Gymnostoma also but yours is not C. cunninghamiana
    (River She-oak) or C. equisetifolia (Horsetail Tree)
    and I do not think it is Allocasuarina stricta (Mountain
    She-Oak) either.

    Good luck,

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2004
  3. srustan

    srustan Member

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    Hi Jim,

    I have checked the web page address you gave to me and other web page about Casuarina. I think you are very right that it must be a species of Casuarina. It is really a satisfaction for me to know this, because I had spending so many time looking at books and internet for this tree with no results because I thought it had to be a conifer and so limited my search on conifers. For a beginner like me I really didn’t realize that it is not a conifer because the appearance of the leaves and the empty wooden fruit case is like of a conifer to me. I have not found the exact name of it because most information in the internet explains about Casuarina species with smaller fruit and not with this kind of bigger fruit.

    As a follow up on this now I am sure that the other trees that I saw in the same housing complex with similar but much smaller fruits and drooping foliage are Casuarina equisetifolia.

    Thank you and regards,

    Subianto
     
  4. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Hi Subianto:

    I'll be quite honest I learned Casuarina to be called
    Beefwood here and I originally learned it to be a
    Gymnosperm. I got myself in trouble years ago
    calling it a Gymnosperm to the wrong person.
    There still is doubt as to whether it is a Conifer
    or not or is it indeed an Angiosperm.

    I thought by the growth habit that yours may be
    a C.junghuhniana but perhaps someone else can
    help with that. The C. cristata form would be
    nice to see what it looks like I think but I'll have
    to do more extensive probing online to find some
    of images of it. I will say the shape of the tree
    you showed is different and fuller than the forms
    that I have seen. Ours tend to be much more
    willowy and not nearly as compact as the tree
    you showed. Keep in mind that some forms
    are not nearly as invasive as other forms are.

    Here are some more URLs for you to look at.

    http://www.floridata.com/ref/C/casu_equ.cfm

    http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/esadocs/documnts/casuequ.html

    http://www.idrc.ca/library/document/074940/chap20_e.html

    I'll see what I can come up with a little later.
    You have provided some excellent pictures
    to gauge things by.

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
  5. srustan

    srustan Member

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    Hi Jim,

    While still looking for the name of the bigger fruit Casuarina, I found from http://www.floridata.com/ref/C/casu_equ.cfm that the trees with the smaller fruit that I thought was Casuarina equisetifolia must be another different species because both the cones and the shape of the tree (pictures below) differ to the pictures of Casuarina equisetifolia in the Floridata web.
    The third pictures shows the cones and the leaves of the both bigger and smaller fruit Casuarina side by side.

    Now I learned that this job of tree identification is much more difficult than it seemed to be, but very interesting indeed.

    Is it possible to identify a tree by solely looking at the details of its cones ?
    I am wondering if there is a way to identify a tree by choosing from an array of different cones pictures from a book (Is there a Manual/Hand book of Cones or something like that ?) rather than the other way around (to guess a tree and then look for more detail info of its cones from different sources to confirm).


    Best regards,

    Subianto
     

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  6. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Hi Subianto:

    I now have some questions to ask. The first tree
    pict0040.jpg, is that a native tree or was it planted
    there? Also, has this tree been pruned to shape it
    in the last few years?

    You do have Casuarina equisetifolia growing in
    Indonesia. I also, did not think your tree was it
    as I know the form that is in Florida. I was
    wondering though, are your cones larger or
    smaller in size than the Casuarina equisetifolia
    is? It could be that there is a different form of C.
    equisetifolia growing in Indonesia rather than the
    form that is in Florida. We are dealing with a plant
    that apparently few people know much about.
    Notice online there are very few pictures of
    Casuarina, yet we have lots of web sites that have
    information but no real web sites to aid in the
    identification by images.

    I am the wrong person to ask if we can identify a
    Gymnosperm solely by its cones. I seldom look
    at the cones as I want to see mature cones but I
    would rather know the size of the needles, in Pines,
    how many needles to a bundle, the basic shape of
    the tree, the bark color and how the bark may be
    fissured.

    The answer you are looking for may have to come
    out of Australia as this is their plant. We read about
    Ironwood being in Hawaii, Florida, Malaysia and
    elsewhere but are they really native as touted by
    some web sites? I think most but not all of the forms
    were introduced at some point in time into the above
    areas. Any area with a warm climate that wanted a
    superior source for firewood would have interest in
    these trees. Out here, people used them as windbreaks,
    that is how I got to know some of them.

    For now we have to base these trees on what you are
    known to have growing near you and that is Casuarina
    junghuhniana and Casuarina equisetifolia. I would
    be more interested in knowing any recent introductions
    such as Casuarina cristata and Casuarina glauca. I do
    not think you have Casuarina cunninghamiana, nor
    Allocasuarina stricta (I learned this one as Casuarina
    stricta) but I have no way of knowing for sure which
    cultivars are growing near you, nor which ones produce
    larger cones than others and what I think is important,
    which ones produce the spikes on the cones. It is the
    pronounced spikes on your cones that has me puzzled
    as I have not seen that as I've seen more rounded and
    tapered shaped spikes instead.

    I'll keep looking online to see what I can come up.
    I want to see a species list with picutres out of
    Australia as I think our answer resides with them.

    There is a woody manual for cones book but I'll
    have to search for the name of it. Even then, it
    may not have Casuarina listed in it. I think for
    most of the world this is still a relatively unknown
    tree.

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
  7. srustan

    srustan Member

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    Hi Jim,

    That tree we are talking about must have been planted there from somewhere else, not a native tree. The area is a housing complex, first established about ten years ago. I have tried to ask about it to the marketing office there but nobody knows who exactly planted all the trees.
    I’m not sure but in my opinion the shape of the tree is the natural one and not because of pruning. The other trees pictured below (PICT0039, 47 at the background, 60) have similar shapes. This housing complex has also several Chinese juniper and Pinus mercusii trees (not shown) among others which looks very healthy. The land is about 75 meter above sea level.
    The Casuarina tree is not well known also here. I have tried to ask for it to several tree plant vendors in Jakarta. They always said it was Cemara Bola first but when they saw the cones all of them admitted that they had never seen it before and so were unsure what it really was. I think the original planter must have brought it from somewhere outside Jakarta and planted it here. Last week a tree vendor near Cibodas Botanic Garden (about 90 km to the South from Jakarta) after a search out based on a sample of the twigs and cones I left with him had found several young specimens of the tree from one of his friend who works in a research institution. So he called me up and I ordered four of it. Unfortunately he too didn’t know the exact name of the tree. (How come ?). Hopefully this week end I’ll be able to show you the shape of the tree when it is still young.

    I think you are right that we should try to look for the answer from somebody in Australia.

    Thank you and regards,


    Subianto
     

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  8. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Location:
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    Hi Subianto:

    Which tree had the small cones and which tree had
    the larger cones?

    My initial thought may have been correct in that the
    pict0040 tree was its natural shape. Based on the
    images you have provided I am seeing two forms of
    Casuarina, the willowy form I am used to thanks to
    a Kiwi grower that introduced me to this tree but I
    am seeing a much more compact shaped tree as well.
    The one pic I've seen of the Casuarina cristata is
    closer to being the willowy form that I am more
    accustomed to seeing for these trees but I have not
    yet seen what the cone looks like. In this particular
    instance it will probably be necessary to know what
    the cones look like once mature. As far as the size
    of the cones of Casuarina equisetifolia grown in
    Florida and elsewhere being the same size as the
    cones from this tree grown in Indonesia is a question
    that I do not have an answer for at this time.

    I think for now we will just have to wait and see if
    any more information about these trees comes online.
    Then again I have not checked out each and every link
    that has come up as I became rather discouraged with
    the colleges offering information about Casuarina but
    no pictures are shown on their web sites.

    If your plans are to use this tree as a landscape tree
    then you should be fine as the trees you showed
    seemed to be happy where they are and there does
    not seem to be a contamination factor from the
    roots affecting the nearby vegetation. I would not
    plant these trees close to your house as I have to
    remind myself of the Alders I had to knock down
    at the misses home as they were planted much too
    close to her house and with any water leaks in the
    cement foundation, she would have had a real mess
    on her hands someday.

    Best regards,

    Jim
     

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