Twiddling my fingers

Discussion in 'Maples' started by Houzi, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Well winter's here,pretty quiet on the forum.....nothing to do except look forward to spring and contemplate,though might be picking up a few new cultivars this week.
    So just a couple of questions in my quest for more knowledge....and something to write :)
    1. When a new cultivar is selected,does anyone know if it's generally common practice to observe the new finding on it's own roots for a while to watch it's true characteristics,then name it,graft it,sell it on....or are they commonly grafted straight away,observed for a while,then sold on?...ie the original cultivar is a plant c/w unrepeatable roots.
    2. Regarding coral barks,I'd almost convinced myself that the sun was the major player in the colour as my once flourescent sango lost all it's colour,and our coldest winter did little to restore it.However Jim pointed out that the coral barks don't colour up well in places without cool winters,so that put paid to that idea.However could vigourosity be a contributing factor too? It's obvious that the new growth is the brightest,so would a more vigourous plant have to add more new cells to it's bark to cover the increasing girth of stem and branches and thus give the plant a brighter appearance? Has anyone(particularly those with several coral barks) noticed any correlation between colour and a vigourous year?.....just wondered.
     
  2. winterhaven

    winterhaven Active Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Hmm. On mine, the portions of the bark getting the most sun get the most color. Maybe it's a combination sun/cold?
     
  3. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    I agree Winter,I was just trying to rule out cold,seeing as on it's own it didn't produce colour,but with Jim's observations,just sun doesn't do it either...so as everyone has suspected,it does need a bit of sun&cold.
     
  4. Gomero

    Gomero Well-Known Member Maple Society 10 Years

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    Definitely, all coral barks require full sun and cold temperatures to get the coral red bark. This has been discussed many times in the forum. In shade, the bark turns yellowish brown or something like that. The good news is that, after 7 years in shade without any red, I moved a Sango kaku to a sunnier location and the next winter the coral bark was back.
    On the other hand the yellow barks (Bi hoo, rufinerves, etc.) turn yellow in sun or shade.

    The 'correct' and 'sensible' approach calls for observation in its own roots for several years (at least 4-5) to make sure the unique traits are well there. Then it should be grafted, preferably by other grafters in different climates, to verify and confirm unique traits. Only after that it should be registered and commercialized. Unfortunately, and regrettably for me, a lot of 'new' cultivars are introduced today too quickly without following this protocol, with the results we are often witnessing in this forum.

    Gomero
     
  5. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Ah interesting Gomero,especially that you can get the colour to return.I have to come to the conclusion then that perhaps I'm not in the best situation to grow this plant.Although it is already in full sun and we get a cold spell in winter,the sun cannot be guaranteed.I can only assume that the extra cold winter we had was also a cloudy one.Looks like I'll have good and bad years(if I ever get the colour back)
    It's good to know that there is/was good protocol regarding new cultivars.Until growing maples I had no dealings with grafted plants.You got what you paid for and if you took cuttings the 'bloodline' was still pure.I do realise though it must be very hard to follow this protocol especially if the new finding is just a single scion as in a 'sport' or similar.
     
  6. Kanuni

    Kanuni Active Member

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    LOL yes, everyday I login hoping for new threads / posts etc... but I get disappointed seeing that it is very quiet in the forum. But I still spend time here, browse and read older threads to educate myself....

    Btw, about the coral barks... I don't have the experience nor the knowledge, but I have recently bought the tree you can see in the attachment. (I don't know how you would rate the bark color of this particular tree though. Maybe it is just not enough to be considered a nice coral bark?)

    I don't know when coral barks start to lose color due to unfavorable conditions (not enough cold and/or sun), but this tree has been imported to here and has been here since 1 year. This means it didn't see enough cold since 1 year (zone 9b). It was in full sun at the nursery, but I planted it to a half shade location. It will receive unfiltered sun until noon, and then full shade (from the house next to it) afterwards. I don't know, maybe it will get "enough sun" since our climate is hotter and the sun is stronger than most of you here, but it will definitely NOT get enough cold.

    I will let you know what changes it will face if anyone is interested. (If it lives of course. They didn't care it in the container well and I had to do a lot of root pruning to remove girdling roots and to expose the root flare.)
     

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  7. Squeezied

    Squeezied Active Member

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    Yes it's been quite. And while we're on the topic of coral barks or sango kakus, I might as well post a few pictures: spring, summer and winter. As I'm from Vancouver, Canada, we have weather that is supposedly "maple heaven" - 8b and mile weather. In the summer it gets full sun; in the winter it gets part sun part shade (that is if it isn't raining as it nearly always does).
     

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  8. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Well Kanuni,your tree's redder than mine presently and mine's definately a coral bark.I was under the impression that most of Turkey has similar winter temps to mine(maybe wrong)..just dipping below freezing on occasions?Until I lost the colour one summer that was cold enough to achieve good colour.By the way,I think all your trees will be ok.
    Boo! my tree used to look like yours Squeezied....very bright! You say it rains a lot in winter,do you also get a fair amount of sun? as it's the only reason I can think of why my colour hasn't returned.
     
  9. Squeezied

    Squeezied Active Member

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    In the pacific northwest, it rains ALOT. But this winter has been relatively sunny and dry so far; so I guess that might explain why the colour is so bright. I wonder if our January and February will be extra wet to make up for the nice weather we've been having.
     
  10. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Oh I hope not incase it makes your tree fade.A very wet winter doesn't sound so much like maple heaven to me lol...I know the feeling.We've had some sunny days,some rain but it hasn't turned really cold yet.Perhaps I should be looking into why my tree lost it's colour in the first place.I remember now it entered spring bright as ever but by mid-summer was almost completely green...did this beneath the cover of it's foliage THE SNEAK!
     
  11. Kanuni

    Kanuni Active Member

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    Different regions have very different climatic conditions here:

    Although Turkey is situated in large Mediterranean geographical location where climatic conditions are quite temperate, diverse nature of the landscape, and the existence in particular of the mountains that run parallel to the coasts, result in significant differences in climatic conditions from one region to the other. While the coastal areas enjoy milder climates, the inland Anatolian plateau experiences extremes of hot summers and cold winters with limited rainfall.
    ...
    Minimum temperatures of -30°C to -38°C are observed in the mountainous areas in the east, and snow may lie on the ground 120 days of the year.


    http://www.atc-anadolu.com/Weather.htm

    The region that I am in has a milder climate and the minimum temperature rarely goes blow freezing in winter. In summers it is a different story. It is quite hot and dry but I guess that an important difference here with a similiar climate in US (southern LA?) is MUCH hotter night temperatures. Sometimes the difference between min. temp at night and maximum temp. at day is so little that it is unbelievable. I guess it is because of the lack of ocean effect. It is not unusual to have min. night temperatures around 80 F in many summer nights. I guess this is one of the most problematic issues for my JM's as well. They just don't have a chance to cool off.

    Is your coral bark planted in full sun? Maybe changing its location will help? What cultivar do you have btw? Do all coral barks respond the same way in similiar conditions?

    Well let's see. I am more hopeful now because I recently viewed some planting videos where people pruned a lot more roots. At worst I am expecting / hoping for diebacks, but then stabilization of the tree. The problem is that I have planted / replanted so many trees, and it will be very demoralizing for me if I chose the wrong approach (by cutting all those big roots) and if many of those trees die. I may just not care about the garden anymore.:). I am just so badly obsessed with jm's now that I can't think of a garden without many of them... Eventhough my climate isn't really good for them. :(

    Everyday I am looking at all my leafless JM's now wondering about their situation in spring. I am probably thinking about them more than most people in this forum at this time of the year. LOL
     
  12. Houzi

    Houzi Active Member 10 Years

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    Sorry Kanuni,I knew about the Anatolian plateau and knew you weren't there,but I admit perhaps it was a bit of a generalisation.I expect the website was quoting figures for the places most tourists would visit..ie the Mediterranean area.
    I started doubting my memory about this tree (Sango Kaku) but photos clearly show it was bright red in April 2010 and in the snow of December 2010 was completely void of colour.I expect it was another lousy summer(can't honestly remember)and I expect it to fade,just disappointed it completely lost all redness and so quickly.....and yes it's in full UK sun??? On a brighter note I've just noticed what little growth it had this year has actually turned red now,but the rest of the plant is still severely lacking.Just have to see how it goes this winter.Sounds like you get enough sun,and I get enough cold,but maybe neither of us have the best conditions for coral barks ha ha.
    Well all your trees are of quite respectable size,I don't think they're gonna keel over just because of the root pruning.As you've said,you can clearly see they were planted very deeply before.Sure they would have survived,but the biggest thing I've learnt from the guys here is that if a tree doesn't grow...it's usually because of depth/root problems.You've done the best for the trees,and with your climate/winters,I think at the best time. Also,you may not necessarily get die back,I haven't noticed any particular increase when root pruning.If the roots are lacking,I believe sometimes the plant responds by only activating the buds it can support,but with your mild winter hopefully you'll have had some decent root regrowth.So I say relax....enjoy the coming festive season,your trees are under absolutely no stress right now :)
    ...and HEY!...I bet many people here are thinking about theirs too.
     

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