Tsuma beni or Tsuma gaki ID

Pic #1-Three different trees pictured, one with light green stems in bottom right. Thinking bottom left stem is 'Tsuma gaki', but not sure as it was labeled 'Tsuma beni' at the retail outlet. Pic#2- closeup of leaf from top stem in pic#1, was in a greenhouse, dark green, and labeled 'Tsuma beni'. All showed the characteristic red leaf margins of both cultivars. Would appreciate if anybody can ID any of these correctly, especially the one with the green stems and samaras.

 

Chimera only informations that i find is:Tsuma gaki have pendulous leaves ,However for Van Gelderen in the book "Maples for gardens" Tsuma beni is synonym of Tsuma gaki....

 

Unless it sometimes throws out branches with different leaves at first, which produce characteristic leaves later top plant definitely neither as leaves much too deeply lobed.

'Tsuma beni'

"The leaves have five or seven lobes which are separated one-third to halfway to the leaf base. They are 5-8 cm long and slightly broader. Each lobe is ovate, terminating in a narrow tip. The margins are lightly and regularly serrated. The reddish green petioles are 2-3 cm long"

'Tsuma gaki'

"The leaves are five lobed, sometimes seven lobed, and measure 6-8 cm long and 7-9 cm wide. The lobes are ovate but taper to a slender tip, and are separated to about halfway to the leaf base. The margins are evenly and lightly serrated"

"Because of the similarity in name, leaf, and form, 'Tsuma gaki' and 'Tsuma beni' may be confused, but they are distinct cultivars"

--JAPANESE MAPLES

 

Thanks Alex, think both have pendulous leaves in the spring. Thinking one form of each are quite similar in leaf shape, as the 'Tsuma beni' in Vertrees 2nd edition , page 66, looks quite like pictures seen of 'Tsuma gaki' on various sites, nurseries included. Then there is the other form of 'Tsuma beni' with the basal lobes pointing backwards with dark stems, may try it. Haven't noticed green stems mentioned anywhere, yet, maybe that tree is neither mentioned cultivars.

 

A lot of people wonder if they are distinguishable. I have both cultivars and I will share side by side pictures of both taken at the same time of the year (April). The first two are Tsuma beni and the other two tsuma gaki.
I will not comment them and let viewers come up with their own conclusion.

Gomero

 

In third edition of same (excerpted above) reddish petioles are mentioned in description of 'Tsuma beni', drooping spring foliage attributed to 'Tsuma gaki'. It is not stated explicitly that these characters distinguish the two, in fact no hints for separating them are offered as such.

 

Thanks Ron , The top plant is growing in a greenhouse so thinking it may not be showing its true characteristics, although the young emerging leaves looked true to descriptions seen, regarding colouring. A little confusing with apparently 2 forms of 'Tsuma beni' around. This form seems similar, in leaf shape, to the one pictured by Mr. Shep here www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=7539 , with an explanation of the two Japanese sources.

 

Jim's posts on multiple plants, with their accounts of different "forms" underscore that many cultivars may be represented by multiple clones, particularly old cultivars such as many Japanese maples coming from Japan may be (older cultivars have had that much more time for numerous independent introductions to have been made under the same cultivar name).

 

Thanks Gomero appreciate the pics. Yes , i am coming to the same conclusion as shown in your pics, my 2 trees here look similar other than what i think is 'Tsuma beni' has green stems as pictured. Of course maybe it is neither cultivar, different growing conditions, or being quite shaded. It isn't twiggy. Am thinking i may be looking at the Kochiro Wada form in the greenhouse, but would need to grow it for a while to be more sure.

 

Ron, Yes, possible a green stemmed one is being sold with a cultivar name. Often see the maples mislabeled ,too.

 

The green stemmed tree's petioles have changed from green to red in 2 days, guessing may be due to higher temperatures along with more sunlight. Main stems are a light green so expect the petioles will mature to a green later. Vertrees does not mention the mature stems colours so assuming they could well be light green, at least in shade. Noticed a pic of a green stemmed 'Tsuma beni' with red petioles here www.bodwen-nursery.co.uk/japanesemapletsu.html . Pic #1 taken July 01/07 , pic #2 taken July 06/07

 

Watch you don't get a 'Tsuna mi'. That one's a bit overwhelming in the garden.

 

LOL. Yes, on high ground here, but I'll stay away from that one. Heard it needs exceptionally good drainage. A little challenging trying to keep or get some of the variable Japanese maples named correctly, whether being grown or looking at new acquisitions, enjoyable though. Appreciate all the help of the forum participants.