Trouble free roses

Discussion in 'Rosa (roses)' started by Gordo, Dec 21, 2005.

  1. Gordo

    Gordo Active Member 10 Years

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    After trying to grow roses for several years (we've tried about twenty - thirty varieties, including some of the Austins), My wife and I have largely given up on them. Our biggest problem, in addition to black spot, is deer. Two years ago we planted a variety called 'Rosalina' (Korsaku), Which has been virtually trouble free. This has a very modest single bloom and lush, deep green foliage, which the deer have left alone. I wonder if anyone can recommend some other easy to grow varieties for the Pacific Northwest?
     
  2. pierrot

    pierrot Active Member 10 Years

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    Gordo

    there is a really good book "Roses for British Columbia" by Brad Jalbert and Laura Peters that is published by lone pine ISBN # 1-55105-261-x. I know it says for british columbia but it should also extend to WA state. there are 144 roses that these authors have researched. on page 93 there is a list of disease free (ha!) and drought resistant roses.

    you may also want to pick up 100 best plants for the coastal garden by Steve Whysall Isbn # 1-55285-661-5. not a lot of roses but it describes a lot of suitable plants for the coastal areas of BC and Northern WA

    I have not had any problems with mcgredy roses here in Vancouver but then everyone's situation is a little different.

    hope this helps

    Pierrot
     
  3. Gordo

    Gordo Active Member 10 Years

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    Thanks, Pierrot, These look like great references - I'll check them out.
     
  4. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Esteemed Contributor UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Another reference for the Pacific Northwest is Great Plant Picks. Only one rose so far, though - but that is partly a function of it being a real challenge to grow roses here.
     
  5. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Deer become less selective the hungrier they get. Oddly, it is normal for them to be starving during winter, even though they are prevalant in cold winter climates. Without efffective fencing you cannot really count on anything except having the spectre of eaten plants hanging over you all the time. Rose family plants are often among the most favored browse during garden visits.

    Although some hybrid roses are being selected for disease resistance now, the overall pattern until very recently if for (with thousands of kinds not all fall into it) is for the more complex hybrids to need more coddling than the the primary hybrids and wild species. Some of these latter can be seen at the Seattle arboretum.
     
  6. Weekend Gardener

    Weekend Gardener Active Member 10 Years

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    With deers, you might want to consider one of the more vigorous ramblers that will put their delicious foliage out of their reach. You will need to protect them for the first 2-3 years, granted. 2-3 layers of chicken wire wrapped around the fledgling climbers might do the trick. Once the older canes become mature and woody, they become less choicier morsels compared the the surrounding vegetation. Of course, the varieties will need to be those that develop woody trunks, not the ones that depend on previous year's new canes for blooming. Rosa filipes "kiftsgate" comes to mind. You could also try any of it's hybrids - e.g. "Treasure Trove". Another possibility is Rosa banksiae. If you are looking for something a bit more "modern" and with repeat flowering, try the vigorous climber "New Dawn".

    Otherwise, anything that has foliage below 8 feet will be choice gourmet eating for the deers.

    (I would like to see the deers get at this seedling of Rosa filipes 'Kiftsgate'! Photographed at the RNRS's rose garden in the UK)

    R fillipes Kiftsgate.jpg
     
  7. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Tree-climbing wild Synstylae (musk) roses such as these can be viewed at David C. Lam Asian Garden (UBC) and Washington Park Arboretum, Seattle. One of the more attractive species, Rosa mulliganii was named after former Seattle arboretum director Brian O. Mulligan, when he was working at the RHS, Wisley, in the 1920s. Multiple specimens can be seen draping conifers near the Brian O. Mulligan Sorbus Collection at the Seattle arboretum.
     
  8. Gordo

    Gordo Active Member 10 Years

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    Thanks all for the great advice. I clearly remember the magnificent Rosa filipes 'Kiftsgate' growing up the trunk of a large conifer at UBC. Thanks also, Ron for the information about Rosa mulliganii. I think I'll have to search this one out simply because I was such a big fan of the former arboretum director, Mr. Mulligan. Many Years ago, I saw a section in an Ortho book written him entitled "Trees that need a friend". That article had a profound effect on me, and inspired an effort on my part to investigate the species Amelanchier, which he championed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2006
  9. Weekend Gardener

    Weekend Gardener Active Member 10 Years

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    If you are considering one of these great ramblers, 'Treasure Trove' provides semi double flowers and some colour tinting. These flowers belong to a specimen that scrambled up a cedar - I guestimated the height to be 30 to 50 feet.

    The original plant was found in the backyard of a gentleman by the name of James Treasure. I grow this particular rose in remembrance of the great Sir Graham Stuart Thomas who died in 2003 - he introduced the rose to commerce. He, as most rose lovers will know, was instrumental in rekindling the interest in and the popularity of old garden roses.

    1404983249924.jpeg
     
  10. Gordo

    Gordo Active Member 10 Years

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    Thank you so much, W.G., for Your recommendation of 'Treasure Trove'. We have grown the beautiful Austin rose 'Graham Thomas'. How wonderful that we can honor such plantsmen and women with plants that they would love.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2006
  11. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Esteemed Contributor UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Just wanted to add that Rosa mulliganii can also be seen here at UBC.
     
  12. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Trouble free and disease resistant, look no further
    than Rosa mutabilis. Sometimes written as Rosa
    chinensis 'Mutabilis'
    but there are three forms of
    varying growth sizes that I know of. One form
    that grows about 3-6' tall, one that stays about
    5' tall and the other can get up to 12' tall as ours
    is right now.

    California Gardens - Rosa mutabilis

    Rosa 'Mutabilis'

    Rogers Roses - 'Mutabilis'

    Now we will have some fun I guess after I did some
    backtracking. The link below shows in color what our
    form of mutabilis that we sold in the nursery starts
    out in color.

    San Marcos Growers Rosa 'Mutablis'

    Below is where we see what can happen with a long
    established Rose in the nursery trade has been, in
    effect, reclassified. What was the reasoning for this
    name change when this Rose has been around so
    long? Had the Rose been more fragrant then I might
    better understand the rationale once I learn of it but
    the fragrance on our Rose is slight at best which
    makes the Rosa x odorata 'Mutabilis' from Rosa
    chinensis 'Mutabilis'
    a misnomer in my mind.
    The case for the newer classification can be made
    depending on which form of recognized mutabilis is
    being considered as one form is more fragrant than
    the other two forms are.

    Royal Horticultural Society - RHS Horticultural Database

    In regards to the below link, what if I see this Rose in
    the Botanical Garden and I feel it is not the same form
    as the Rose I have and have been around for almost 30
    years?

    Rosa x odorata 'Mutabilis' - UBC Botanical Garden Forums

    Jim
     
  13. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Esteemed Contributor UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Jim - that's certainly a puzzle. I'll add a bit of info - our 'Mutabilis' came from Glasnevin in Dublin, so I'm guessing it more closely approximates what folks in the UK know and have determined as being 'Mutabilis' with associated nomenclature. We've a few slides of it in different stages of flowering, but I don't think they are scanned in. The ones we have in the garden are roughly 5' high.
     
  14. Dee M.

    Dee M. Active Member 10 Years

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    The problem with 'Mutabilis' is that it isn't very hardy in my zone 7 area and it often has to re sprout from it's roots. That's too bad because I like the way the flowers change colors as they age. The one I've seen starts out yellow, more like the San Marcos Growers form.
    I want to put in a recommendation for 'Westerland' climbing rose. It has strong thorny canes and can also be used as a pillar rose. It should be able to get above the deer if you protect it when it's young. It is very disease resistant, fragrant, cold hardy, and an orange-apricot blend. The flowers are a large, loose, semi-double with a 18-25 petal count so it won't ball in rainy weather, in clusters. Often that color is more disease prone and less hardy but not this one.
     
  15. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    If mutabilis does not do well in Western Washington
    then okay, it may not be a good choice but isn't much
    of Western Washington a zone 4 (Western Garden
    Book
    ) rating? How well does it do in the Botanical
    Garden? Makes me wonder how old the plants were
    and where they were placed in the landscape?

    The reason I mentioned this particular Rose other
    than I like it as a landscape plant is that we've used
    it in other landscapes where Deer will come in and
    eat away at things and tend to leave a 10' tall plant
    of this alone. Even if the Deer do eat at it they will
    do the Rose a favor as many people do not prune this
    Rose as the vigorous form we carried will grow like
    "wildfire" when we do severely prune it back. I cut
    ours down to 3' tall every third or fourth year and it
    gets back to 12' tall in no time and if I let it, this
    Rose would grow 20-25' wide on me in no time as
    well. I do not give this Rose any Nitrogen for a
    fertilizer application as it will cover up our hybrid
    teas in front of it if I do.

    Jim
     
  16. Dee M.

    Dee M. Active Member 10 Years

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    I've heard this about mutabilis from many people, but the best experts were the owners of The Antique Rose Farm in Snohomish, WA. They still considered it worth growing because it does re sprout but it wasn't a tall plant for them, so that may not be good if you want a tall rose. I just thought I would warn people in zone 7, Camano Island might be in zone 8, especially with the mild winters we've had lately. A lot of factors combine to make a plant hardy and I'm afraid my area has a lot of the factors that make a rose less hardy, like lack of summer heat to ripen the growth, wet soil, and sudden freezes and thaws to name a few. I thought it was very interesting about the different forms of mutabilis you've found. What do you think about the rose 'Flutterbye', that has mutabilis parentage? It did get some downy mildew and black spot at our nursery last year but the colors are great, I wonder if it is hardier but I doubt it.
    Downy mildew was as bad as we've ever seen in about 20 years at our nursery. Many people confused it with black spot.
     
  17. mr.shep

    mr.shep Well-Known Member 10 Years

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    Another aspect to consider is that there are three forms
    of this rose. I showed links to two of them of which
    the form I believe the Botanical Garden has is one
    of them. Not all of the descriptions from those links
    "jive" in concert with the picture of the rose shown.

    The smaller form may have problems in a zone 7 as
    it from what I know is the more tender of the three
    forms. Ours that we had was the vigorous form which
    you may not have and this form can be seen in a zone
    3 in Lake Tahoe but it can have some dieback in severe
    cold but usually recovers. The smaller form there may
    be killed outright in comparison.

    I am not disputing what you wrote in your posts at all.
    I welcome your posts. If I didn't like what I see I would
    not go with all this stuff in this post!

    Hybrids such as 'Flutterbye' can indeed have the disease
    resistance bred out of them, the antithesis of hybrid vigor
    in some cases, as we may get more vigor but at the same
    time we may also have more susceptibility to diseases
    we may not see so readily in the old form. There usually
    is a trade off somewhere with Roses which is why it is
    so important to have a clarification of which diseases the
    Rose may not be susceptible to in some areas, may not
    apply to others. We hear of bred in disease resistance
    but how can we say that when the prototype Roses were
    grown here in which some of those diseases are never
    seen such as downy mildew in Wasco? When the Roses
    are grown along some of the coastal areas of California
    then okay then we may see some downy mildew on
    them . A stipulation must be made that a new Rose that
    is touted as being resistant to a particular disease or
    disorder in fact is, as opposed to relying on people to
    be given the Rose free to grow as a tester and report
    back of any limitations that Rose has. It used to that the
    test Rose was grown in areas to learn for sure that the
    Rose was resistant to black spot rather than say it has
    black spot resistance bred into it when the field grown
    trails in areas that get black spot may suggest something
    a little different. Still, let's field grow these things in
    areas that are known to have some disease problems and
    let's find out whether the Rose is resistant to black spot
    or not prior to the release of the Rose to nurseries and
    the general public in areas that may have some problems
    with them. I know of an AARS Rose I have that was
    widely regarded as being rather vigorous and disease
    resistant but aphids sure mess that Rose up big time and
    then in comparison to my other 50 or so Roses, it is the
    weakest grower of the bunch and seems to be when grown
    in other yards near me. I would not go out and buy it again
    is what I am saying. The flower is beautiful and has medium
    to strong fragrance but when grown in warm areas it is not
    a good one for us. It seems to do much better in several
    locations in Oregon for example.

    The one thing I like about the Western Garden Book zone
    designations are that they are a little better at knit picking
    the growing conditions better than the USDA zones. Even
    then what may apply to you in a zone 4 can be different than
    another part of Washington that is also a zone 4. We have to
    take the zone designations with a grain of salt as we can have
    dramatic differences of growing conditions at times even in
    the same zone. We cannot fully equate Fresno as the same
    as Wasco is for example in growing Roses. If they were the
    same then the field grown plants may be grown in the Eastern
    part of Fresno County instead but that area gets colder and
    has a little more moisture in the air than Wasco gets. Drier
    air, less humid and warmer temperatures is a better location
    for field grown Roses when they are to be sent back to the
    host nursery, cleaned up, packaged up and shipped out the
    following late Winter/early Spring..

    Jim
     
  18. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    'Mutabilis' is has been sold and planted for years in western Washington, nearly all of the more populous portions of which - including Snohomish - are well within USDA 8. (Sunset 4 + Sunset 5 = USDA 8, to a greater extent). In England it has grown up warm walls, in the open it grows lower, as it does here (when planted in the open).

    Your USDA zone isn't found by looking where in the temperature spreads given your record low would fall, it's where your average annual minimum temperature would fit. Except for that goofy bit near Olympia to be where they put 7 in this area you have to be pretty far out there.

    http://www.uncommonrose.biz/r/washington.html
     
  19. Dee M.

    Dee M. Active Member 10 Years

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    Jim, I always like hearing your advice because you have so much experience. And no one can know it all, that is one of the great things about horticulture is that there is always more to learn. It all comes down to knowing your own micro climate because so many factors effect plant hardiness, and I've learned by experience in my own yard in Snohomish that the cold is tough on roses here. I like hearing other people's ideas but with regards to roses I only trust advice from people in my area that I have talked to first hand. I like roses but it seems like many people around here are disgusted with them because of diseases and other problems and I would like to get the word out about some varieties that really are low maintenance. At our nursery I have compiled a list with 4 categories, from low to high maintenance. The totally trouble free list is compiled from our actual experiences growing the plants and we don't take the growers word for it any more till we see it with our own eyes.
    I do like the Sunset Western Garden book's zones better myself because they are more precise, I would be zone 4 here. It will be interesting to see the new USDA zone map when it comes out.
    It could well be the mutabilis we have in this area is the more tender one. And I have also seen it get a fair amount of blackspot here, in the blackspot capital of the world.
     
  20. Gordo

    Gordo Active Member 10 Years

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    Hey Dee, I love lists. Any chance you could share your "trouble free" List? The good information generated here so far has been incredible. Thanks.
     
  21. Daniel Mosquin

    Daniel Mosquin Esteemed Contributor UBC Botanical Garden Forums Administrator Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Two different plantings - one is on an southeast exposed slope, fairly open area (roadside), while the other is sheltered underneath a Western red cedar in the Asian garden with sun only in the morning and evening for most of the year, though it gets intense afternoon sun during mid-summer. One is a 1994 accession, the other 1997. Both of these are propagations from unrooted cuttings received in 1993.

    I believe UBC was "recommending" this plant at one time, but that predates me. Still, it is performing well here consistently.
     
  22. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    Being botanically a tea (Rosa x odorata), horticulturally a China 'Mutabilis' will be among the "tender" roses, hardy to 10F-15F--as are many modern roses such as various hybrid teas. In 1990, when it got well below 10F even in parts of Seattle, there was widespread freezing off of rose tops. Quite large Synstylae (wild musk) roses in the Arboretum were turned to piles of dead brush, from beneath which feeble looking little shoots appeared eventually (by now they are big again). Being farther east, Snohomish will be colder than communities built right on the Sound but not cold enough to drop a whole USDA zone, which are made so large they are split into a and b. Another split will be within the vicinity of Snohomish, properties up on the hill having better air drainage than those down on the flat valley floor, such as Antique Rose Farm.

    My 'Mutabilis' has not died back here, but it was probably planted post 1990 and we are 1/4 mile or less from the Sound. It does get a bit spotty, as do some other local specimens. This and "Darlow's Enigma" are two comparative stalwarts that are rather often seen used as landscape shrubs in local plantings that do not feature roses.
     
  23. Dee M.

    Dee M. Active Member 10 Years

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    For added insurance, because they can re sprout from the roots, I think own root roses are the way to go even though it may take longer to get them established. I have temporally misplaced my list so the following is what I remember off hand in no particular order. Realize too that these are the roses we carry, we don't have a big demand for singles and old roses, even though we have tried to push them in the past, we refer them to other specialty nurseries now. I also what to say that just because it is an old rose doesn't mean it can't have problems. All of these roses would be eaten by deer. These roses do not ball [refuse to open because they rot in rainy weather], one of my pet peeves.
    Rugosa roses
    Knock Out
    Living Easy
    Easy Going
    All That Jazz
    Playboy
    Playgirl
    Old Master
    Ralph's Creeper
    Penelope [Other musk roses are good too and a little shade tolerant]
    Westerland
    Cl. Dawn
    Europeana

    Roses for Cutting-
    Best double fragrant pinks with only a few problems-Queen Elizabeth, New Zealand, Peace
    Best double fragrant white with only a few problems-Full Sail
    Best double fragrant yellow, just some blackspot-Sunsprite
    Best double fragrant red with only a few problems-Ingrid Bergman
    I liked the Wild Blue Yonder test rose, a new one that will be out this year, it had the best disease resistance of the ones we tested, I have it planted in my yard now but I have to grow it a year before I can give it a full recommendation. So far no cold damage and they are notoriously tender. A good lavendar would be great.
    I know I am forgetting a few, I can see them in my mind but just can't remember their names.
    I'd like to hear other people's opinion, I've heard Darlow's Enigma is good and a lot of the ramblers also.

    Edited to add this is just my personal opinion and only applies to my own area. Take everything with a grain of salt.
     
  24. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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    I don't like grafted roses anyway because the rootstocks used in USA are often diseased. I have run into other issues as well, such as Rosa rugosa being grafted(!) onto incompatible rootstocks that result in the plant dwindling away and being lost within a few years after purchase.
     
  25. Dee M.

    Dee M. Active Member 10 Years

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    Yes, I've heard that a lot of root stocks have downy mildew, and since it is a systemic disease it will be in the plant forever. Viruses are the same way. I'm sure this doesn't apply to all growers but I'm not sure which ones to trust. Thankfully downy mildew isn't usually a big problem here. I've also seen a disease on the native Salmon berries in my woods that looks suspiciously like downy mildew too, though I haven't had it tested.
    I remembered a rose I had forgotten, unfortunately we don't carry it so I'll have to get it somewhere else, but 'Sally Holmes' is the only rose I plan [so far, famous last words of mine] to add to my garden this year. It is very disease resistant here, has very large, white with a pink blush, single flowers that look like a dogwood, has some hybrid musk parentage, and it should grow tall enough to escape the deer. It isn't fragrant but it is showy at a distance. I read it has a long vase life for a single rose.
    Here is a picture
    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?i=A5589&tab=10
    Another hybrid tea I like is Maria Stern, a tall orange, it is cold hardy. very fragrant, and disease resistance, but like most hybrid teas it can ball in the rain and the flowers aren't as profuse as in most of the other groups.
     

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