Thigmotropic growth in Norway maples

Discussion in 'Maples' started by pauliD, Nov 16, 2022.

  1. pauliD

    pauliD New Member

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    in this photo a young Norway maple, maybe 10 years old , has been "boarded" ,if you will , by an English ivy. It seems most botanists are will tell you to rip that Vine off before it strangles the young tree. Well I am calling BS on Vines strangling trees. How is that even a thing I don't know but the next picture is of a group of specimens that I harvested from the same Grove where I took the picture they are what the young Mabel will look like in 30 or 40 years if it is able to hold on that long the Vine induces a helical growth in the maple. The maple is accommodating the Vine it will eventually completely cover the Vine the vine is still alive and supplying nutrients to the canopy can anyone speak to this tropic growth by the Norway maple https://photos.app.goo.gl/XagefgpMuhDWMacAA
     
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  2. wcutler

    wcutler Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator VCBF Cherry Scout 10 Years

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    The photo you attached didn't make it. You can have a look at Attach photos and files, and reply to include that photo.

    Welcome, @pauliD. I'm not sure whether to move this to the Maples forum - your interest is in the response of the maple more than the behaviour of the vine, and specifically of a thigmotropic vine?
     
  3. pauliD

    pauliD New Member

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    Thank you Wendy, you are quite correct. My interest is in the maples. Thank you for the link for photo insertion I hope to get back to you soon
     
  4. Ron B

    Ron B Paragon of Plants 10 Years

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  5. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    You're right to point out that Norway Maple is invasive in some states and countries, but I don't think that means we shouldn't talk about it. English Ivy on the other hand, haha. What a pest.

    I recently received, collected in upstate NY by a friend who is a well educated plantsman, 3 A. nigrum seedlings collected from a grove of unhybridized trees. One of them is a da** Norway Maple!

    That said, A. platanoides is not invasive here, and is only relatively invasive (compared to A. negundo) far into Eastern EU. However we know (Tumiłoicz 2002) that the range has increased and moved east in Poland over the last 100 years. (It is considered native there). And, there are many useful cultivars, some of which seed less freely: for example we grow the beautiful dwarf 'Holata', sadly in flower just now after the drought. It has never set seed to my knowledge even on the original selection.

    For the OP, how so? The ivy leaves choke out the sun from the maple (or other) tree. Where do the nutrients enter the canopy?

    The main problem with ivy in trees here, is it increases the wind cross section which can cause limb breakage or even uprooting of entire trees, during a big Atlantic storm. And we get a lot of those.

    There is no question that in our native oaks, limbs choked with ivy underperform and often die back. If a limb is not providing enough nutrients, the tree will respond by compartmentalizing it from sap flow, and it will die. In maple trees (like those Snakebarks from the Sec. Macrantha) that regularly undergo branch shedding through abscission (cladoptosis) you can perform the experiment by stripping any new leaves continually from a branch; the tree will compartmentalize and shed it within a matter of weeks. (Yes I know the analogy is stretched to oaks, but the result is the same).

    On large trees here part of regular maintenance involves cutting Ivy stems near the base of the trunk.
     
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  6. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    My! The number of things and words that I learn visiting this forum, even words that I've never heard before in French...

    I'm not sure I'll be able to place it in a conversation to show off, with most of my friends, even with those who are "interested" in trees, most of them don't even know "dendrology", they porobably think it has something to do with that toothache, and think of a dental parlour... ;-D

    I've always thought that A. platanoides was a native species : it has sevral vernacular names (Wikipedia : "Il est parfois appelé Érable de Norvège, Iseron, Plane, Main-découpée, Plaine ou Faux Sycomore.") which to me is the sign that it has long been established in many regions of France. I think the most common name in my region is "Erable plane".
     
  7. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Haha, "cladoptosis" always sounds like an STD, that's how I remember it. "abscission" I think is the same in French.

    I've always heard "érable plane", or "de Norvège", don't know the other ones. But according to MOW it is not native to France at all -- assuming France counts as a "coastal country of Western EU -- nor the UK. (This is also true of A. pseudoplatanus, the Sycamore Maple, although it's been naturalized here for hundreds of years. But anthropogenic range doesn't seem to be included as "natural," although if seed was spread by, say, birds, we would consider it natural. I never hear about a "naturalized range.") Certainly platanoides is not endemic to N. America, but it is in Eastern and Central EU, according to MOW.
     
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  8. AlainK

    AlainK Renowned Contributor Forums Moderator Maple Society 10 Years

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    Ha! Just making a smoke screen with scientific words again, you anthropogenist ! <LOL>

    Huh huh... Joking.

    Babel-escher.jpg
     
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  9. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Ai, my crumbling Ivory Tower... ;)
     
  10. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Depends on where you are in France; it is not native where Emery is in Normandy, but is further east and (at higher altitudes) south:
     

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  11. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    Here's a pic from Tumiłowicz 2002, which shows the anthropogenic (hrmph) expansion of A. platanoides in Poland. He doesn't say so, but I guess much of the increase is due to the invasive nature of the species.

    anthroPlat.jpg
     
  12. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    That map just doesn't make sense, given that there are >220 year old specimens (and others up to 37 m tall) in Białowieża National Park (red X), in the area supposedly not reached until after 1999...

    This site is as close to virgin forest as anywhere in the whole of Europe. Pretty safe to conclude that Norway Maple is genuine native throughout Poland.
     

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  13. emery

    emery Renowned Contributor Maple Society 10 Years

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    I don't doubt it. I think he's referring to regenerating trees at large, from street and garden plantings, not specimens in collections. But, go figure! ;) The whole argument is a bit vague, he's discussing trees "native" to Poland.
     
  14. Michael F

    Michael F Paragon of Plants Forums Moderator 10 Years

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    Strange! I find it hard to believe the author wouldn't know about the species' indigenous status in places like Białowieża.
     

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